Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher • Hacker News Board

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#91

Post by roguecoder » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 7:26 PM UTC

sopooneo wrote: post #59

roguecoder wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that even those things don't predict later success. Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". Any kid who's been drilled can learn to multiply two numbers together. Without cognitive skills behind them, though, those are not useful abilities. The best predictors of future success are self-control, emotional intelligence and a grasp of functional algebra (whic…

From my work teaching I am very skeptical of the notion that it is a family's ability to "afford" books that makes the difference. It is whether the family knows that books are important and chooses to get them and read with their children. While monetary poverty is horrible, it's effect on educational outcome is dwarfed in comparison to cultural dysfunction and despair.

Sorry, that was unclear: the study I was thinking of specifically looked at giving poor families children's books and founded a measurable improvement in English skills. Of course access to a library that is open when a parent doesn't have to work, the time and energy to read to children and many other factors also play a role in early exposure to literacy.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#92

Post by roguecoder » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 7:32 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #52

roguecoder wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that even those things don't predict later success. Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". Any kid who's been drilled can learn to multiply two numbers together. Without cognitive skills behind them, though, those are not useful abilities. The best predictors of future success are self-control, emotional intelligence and a grasp of functional algebra (whic…

I think it's worth emphasizing that the research done in this article doesn't look at kids' absolute test scores, but only the difference between test scores before and after the school year. Also, my school emphasized self-control, but how do you learn emotional intelligence?

While it is a relatively recent topic of interest, surprisingly it doesn't seem particularly difficult to teach. Much of the research is still in the preliminary stages, but one study found persistent improvement after a brief four-session intervention: http://orbi.ulg.ac.be/bitstream/2268/30253/1/Nelis%20PAID%20...

It will take further work to associate learning such skills with the positive outcomes associated with the skills themselves and figure out what the best ways to teach the skills are, but current research is promising.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#93

Post by sp332 » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 7:41 PM UTC

roguecoder wrote: post #92

sp332 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth emphasizing that the research done in this article doesn't look at kids' absolute test scores, but only the difference between test scores before and after the school year. Also, my school emphasized self-control, but how do you learn emotional intelligence?

While it is a relatively recent topic of interest, surprisingly it doesn't seem particularly difficult to teach. Much of the research is still in the preliminary stages, but one study found persistent improvement after a brief four-session intervention: http://orbi.ulg.ac.be/bitstream/2268/30253/1/Nelis%20PAID%20... It will take further work to associate learning such skills with the positive outcomes associated with…

Cool, thanks!

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#94

Post by glenra » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 7:48 PM UTC

elemenohpee wrote: post #19

the_bear wrote: post #17

It's common for people who received good educations to say that test scores aren't an acceptable indication of learning. It's probably true that if you already have an acceptable level of education, test scores shouldn't be too important, but it seems like the people criticizing test scores haven't experienced what education is like for the children being "left behind." In middle school, the last three weeks of each…

Where did you go to school? How does this happen?

Even at good schools with non-religious teachers, students are undoubtedly taught lots of information that's false. Teachers are of merely average intelligence and often just don't know that what they're teaching is false.

Which is fine because if the subject matter actually matters, there will be ample chances to relearn it later. Having teachers teach stuff that is wrong is only a big problem if you think teachers need to be infallible. But the fact that teachers can be wrong seems to me one of the more important true things kids learn in school.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#95

Post by the_bear » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 8:11 PM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #76

the_bear wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to the University City School District in St. Louis. It was actually a pretty strange place because it's the main district that Wash U (Washington University in St. Louis) is in, so about 10% of the students are children of (mostly white) professors and other very education-oriented professionals (doctors, lawyers, etc). Because of that, top classes (honors and AP) were actually pretty good. I, and many of my…

What class were you in to be taught that incorrect stuff from your OP? I can't imagine those professors and doctors would let it slide if their children were being taught such nonsense.

The honors and AP classes were generally pretty good (in math and science anyway) but those weren't always options. For example, in 10th grade, there wasn't an honors world history class, so I had to take the normal class. That's where I was taught what the big bang theory was. I knew it was wrong and tried to argue, but the teacher was pretty sure she was right. I immediately went to my adviser and got switched to a different teacher, but the rest of the class didn't know any better (many of them probably thought the teacher was right).

As for parents not getting involved, I'm not sure I ever told my parents about that stuff because I thought it was normal. Middle school was by far the worst part of the district, and a few years ago my brother and I were telling my parents stories about how about once per week there were school-wide riots in the lunch room that the FAs (bouncers) couldn't contain and we could do basically whatever we wanted for 30 minutes because of the chaos. It turns out my parents had no idea this was happening (my mom said she wouldn't have let me go back to that school if she'd known). We never told any parents because we thought every school had riots like that.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#96

Post by nnnnnnnninnnnnn » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 8:13 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #48

nnnnnnnninnnnnn wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do however get to control who your engineers are. It's rather difficult for a teacher to "fire" a student.

I don't get to control the projects sent my way. I'm not allowed to "fire" customers with difficult expectations. Hell, I've only ever fired one engineer in a 20+ year career, and that was because he was the equivalent of a violent student whom you would expel and send to juvi. Why is it so hard to deal with the information as presented in the study. Fine, question the details or methods of the study. Offer counter e…

I'm not sure why you're talking about "firing" customers. That might be the equivalent of teachers firing student's parents? Anyways, what I was trying to get at is that people working at a company choose to work there, MOST of the time they are doing something they are good at. Compare this to students, teachers do not get to choose their students from a set of applicants. Also oftentimes students do not see the benefit of being in school. I am not opposed to the study, I was only addressing the point you made about comparing a school to your company. I do not think it is a very good comparison.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#97

Post by MarkMc » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 8:31 PM UTC

aaronharnly wrote: post #3

I, like many, hope the MET project yields fruit. However, see this post for a strong critique of one of the key claims of the MET study: http://garyrubinstein.teachforus.org/2013/01/09/the-50-milli... Namely, in the scatterplot correlating predicted effectiveness and actual effectiveness, they pooled teachers into 5% groups. This naturally reduces the variance, yielding a much straighter line of points than would an…

I don't know enough about statistics to judge the strength of Mr Rubinstein's critique, but I find this a little odd: The axes on his graph is a 'raw score' between -1 and 1, but the axes on the MET study graph is 'standard deviations'. Is that significant?

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#98

Post by madaxe » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 8:35 PM UTC

coob wrote: post #35

madaxe wrote: post #11

"Test scores" Brilliant. Well, yes, that is the best way to measure a teacher's efficacy, if your goal is to teach students to jump through hoops and pass standardised tests rather than to think. The best teacher I ever had was my grandmother - she taught me the most important lessons I'd ever learn, such as: "Observe the world around you." "Reach your own conclusions." "What was fact yesterday may be fiction tomorro…

Did you read the article? It didn't use just standardised test scores.

Of course I did, but standardised tests, particularly in the US, do little other than teach people how to game multiple choice, and pass tests.

Life isn't about passing tests, it's about learning.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#99

Post by madaxe » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 8:45 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #25

madaxe wrote: post #11

"Test scores" Brilliant. Well, yes, that is the best way to measure a teacher's efficacy, if your goal is to teach students to jump through hoops and pass standardised tests rather than to think. The best teacher I ever had was my grandmother - she taught me the most important lessons I'd ever learn, such as: "Observe the world around you." "Reach your own conclusions." "What was fact yesterday may be fiction tomorro…

I don't really understand the visceral reaction against testing in this HN thread. You're tested throughout your working life. Almost every job interview is a test. Giving a customer presentation is a test. Finding bugs in your software for a release date is a test. Memorizing that big Cheesecake Factory menu so you can wait tables is a test. Getting your General Contractor's license is a test. Getting certified as a…

Job interviews are horseshit. I've been on both sides of the table, usually the hiring side. I've encountered people who excel at interview, and turn out to be useless. Conversely, I've encountered people who are horrible in interview, and wonderful employees.

Giving a presentation isn't a test, it's a pleasure. You're not being tested. You're just presenting facts for someone to make a decision. There's not a right or wrong. If there is, you're in the wrong room.

QA is not a test. It consists of tests, sure, but those are for the software, not you. It's a task, and one with a purpose.

Memorising a menu is not a test. It's memorising a menu, for a purpose. If you were memorising a chapter of Crime and Punishment verbatim to get a job at Cheesecake Factory, that's a test, and an arbitrary one.

Getting a license, in the sense that you're tested, again, is different, as those are vocational tests which test your practical skills for a specific application.

Being tested is only part of life if you choose to let other people set your challenges. This is what the educational teaches you to do, and accept as normal.