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Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

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Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#41

Post by ims »

roguecoder wrote: post #32
the_bear wrote: post #17

It's common for people who received good educations to say that test scores aren't an acceptable indication of learning. It's probably true that if you already have an acceptable level of education, test scores shouldn't be too important, but it seems like the people criticizing test scores haven't experienced what education is like for the children being "left behind." In middle school, the last three weeks of each…

Except that even those things don't predict later success. Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". Any kid who's been drilled can learn to multiply two numbers together. Without cognitive skills behind them, though, those are not useful abilities. The best predictors of future success are self-control, emotional intelligence and a grasp of functional algebra (whic…

> Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English".

True, but there are also many families that can afford books but don't buy them, instead spending money on other things. Not having books in the house has been shown to correlate with decreased academic success.[1] I'm not saying this isn't a wealth issue, but that probably isn't the only dimension.

[1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0276562410...

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#42

Post by wheaties »

cbsmith wrote: post #10

I'll have to look at the prior reports, but this 3rd report is somewhat disappointing in terms of its statistical rigor. They do provide weightings based on optimal predictions for maximum accuracy with predictions for state tests scores, although those weights appear to assume a simple linear correlation. Even then, the data suggests that in class observations are almost a complete waste of time (single digit weight…

Yes, this is also the same foundation that spent 1 billion to make schools smaller, because they didn't do simple statistical analysis to find that smaller schools showed much larger variability. Now they're coming back to say "oops, we were wrong."

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/09/the...

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#43

Post by Symmetry »

gnosis wrote: post #13

There are many important factors which teachers (no matter how good they are) can't control: 1. How wealthy, poor, educated, or uneducated a child's parents are. 2. How many resources the school and teacher are given. 3. Whether a child's parents are abusing them at home. 4. Whether a child is witnessing violence, hopelessness, despair in their neighborhood. 5. The attitude of a child's family and friends towards edu…

So, if a teacher has as little effect on a child's performance as you seem to be implying should we then reduce teacher pay, accept the lower quality applicants we would get since it doesn't matter, and spend the extra money on anti-poverty measures?

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#44

Post by sethammons »

crusso wrote: post #15
gnosis wrote: post #13

There are many important factors which teachers (no matter how good they are) can't control: 1. How wealthy, poor, educated, or uneducated a child's parents are. 2. How many resources the school and teacher are given. 3. Whether a child's parents are abusing them at home. 4. Whether a child is witnessing violence, hopelessness, despair in their neighborhood. 5. The attitude of a child's family and friends towards edu…

And at my job, there are many factors out of my control. I don't control the home life of my engineers. I don't control my customers' decision making processes. I don't control my competitors' actions in the market. But yet I'm judged on the small slice of that overall pie that I can control. What this study indicates is that there are teachers who can reproducibly create success levels given the control of the situa…

Here is some experience that I have had. In an inner city high school (math class), in each mid-thirty student sized class, there were about four students who made it their point to disrupt the classroom. Unless actual violence occurred, they were not to be kicked out. So the teacher could spend a large portion of the period trying to reign in a couple of students at the expense of the whole class. Add to that that the majority of the class had difficulty with, not just multiplication or division, but SUBTRACTION.

This was an Algebra class, and the students had to be graded on their Algebra skills and judged on their Algebra proficiency tests. No homework would be completed, and no recourse could be given for lack of homework. 50% of these 9th grade students will not make it graduation. 3% will make it to a four year institution. Less will graduate from there.

How is this different than working with professional engineers? Ones who could be fired or in some other way worked with? How is this different than working code where a solution exists? How is this different than working with other people who are looking for a solution as well?

A better comparison would be to how you judge a prison guard in relation to recidivism rate.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#45

Post by murbard2 »

If this becomes policy, it will most likely become another example of Goodhart's law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodharts_law

You can find a measure that correlates to performance, but once you use it to actually evaluate teacher, teacher will adapt and the measure will lost all relevance.

Rely on test scores? Teach the test, not the material. Rely on student evaluations? Bribe them with easy material and good grades. Rely on principal evaluation? Get on its good side.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#47

Post by calibraxis »

nathan_long wrote: post #4

I can't say whether the findings are correct or not, but I like this: >> The teachers who seemed to be effective were, in fact, able to repeat those successes with different students in different years, the researchers found. Their students not only scored well on standardized exams but also were able to handle more complicated tests of their conceptual math knowledge and reading and writing abilities. To everyone wh…

Then why not use standardized tests for job interviews, or why don't decent universities use them? Standardized tests have serious disadvantages to consider, and aren't normally considered best-by-default.

There at least a couple obvious groups qualified to rate educational quality: teachers and students. If they happen to choose a standardized test to evaluate the education, then fine. Otherwise, I don't see standardized tests as obviously virtuous.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#48

Post by crusso »

nnnnnnnninnnnnn wrote: post #40
crusso wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And at my job, there are many factors out of my control. I don't control the home life of my engineers. I don't control my customers' decision making processes. I don't control my competitors' actions in the market. But yet I'm judged on the small slice of that overall pie that I can control. What this study indicates is that there are teachers who can reproducibly create success levels given the control of the situa…

You do however get to control who your engineers are. It's rather difficult for a teacher to "fire" a student.

I don't get to control the projects sent my way. I'm not allowed to "fire" customers with difficult expectations.

Hell, I've only ever fired one engineer in a 20+ year career, and that was because he was the equivalent of a violent student whom you would expel and send to juvi.

Why is it so hard to deal with the information as presented in the study. Fine, question the details or methods of the study. Offer counter evidence. The study presented evidence that good teachers can have a noticeable and measurable level of control on the output of their students. Why is dealing with evidence not the central part of this discussion?

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#49

Post by Nitramp »

roguecoder wrote: post #32
the_bear wrote: post #17

It's common for people who received good educations to say that test scores aren't an acceptable indication of learning. It's probably true that if you already have an acceptable level of education, test scores shouldn't be too important, but it seems like the people criticizing test scores haven't experienced what education is like for the children being "left behind." In middle school, the last three weeks of each…

Except that even those things don't predict later success. Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". Any kid who's been drilled can learn to multiply two numbers together. Without cognitive skills behind them, though, those are not useful abilities. The best predictors of future success are self-control, emotional intelligence and a grasp of functional algebra (whic…

> Without cognitive skills behind them, though, [multiplication, reading] are not useful abilities.

Maybe I misunderstand you, but I fail to see how multiplication or reading are not useful skills. Good reading comprehension will help you navigate life in general, which is something lots of people struggle with. Similar for multiplication.

Even if someone is not very intelligent, if he's mastered a basic skill like that, he'll find lots of places to apply it. That's why there's so much emphasis in school on them.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#50

Post by blueprint »

The title of this article, and perhaps the researchers' conclusions from their data, is wrong. They didn't find the criteria of a great teacher (that is, what makes a good teacher). They just found some correlations among the _qualities_ of good teachers. It's the total opposite meaning. They found results of good teachers, not causes.
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