Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows • Hacker News Board

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#41

Post by coderdude » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 1:31 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #29

coderdude wrote: post #19

Bundling third-party software with installers already happens and will continue to happen whether this company exists or not. If they can improve upon that experience somehow: - Reviewing the software before allowing it to be bundled and weeding out the bad eggs. - Adding user reviews inline with the list of software to install. ...then there's a possibility that they can make this a pleasant, legitimate experience f…

How do we know what a "bad egg" is? Just because some behaviour is acceptable to "InstallMonetizer" does not mean it will necessarily be acceptable to me. Besides if they are seeking to maximise revenues for investors there will always be that incentive to find ways to justify bundling more intrusive stuff.

Like most people they probably know what sucks to have sprung on them. If they don't want their brand to suck as well then they can strive to align with peoples' expectations of how such software should behave. You don't like popups? I'll bet they know that.

I think the investors can see the value in not tarnishing the brand and so that might fuel their efforts to make sure none of their advertisers can be classified as malware/adware.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#42

Post by swies » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 1:31 PM UTC

jstclair wrote: post #35

swies wrote: post #16

Y Combinator also funded our solution to crapware. http://ninite.com Basically we automate multiple installers and decline toolbars just like you would. Users range from the nontechnical to NASA. We even have a huge blind user base because these installers are frequently hell to navigate with a screenreader. We make money selling a Pro version with extra features to businesses and school IT departments. It works well…

It took me a double-read to understand you meant "...funded our solution (to [crapware] junk like this): ninite.com" Upon first reading, it sounded like "to junk like ninite" Great stuff!

Thanks! Edited (hopefully) for clarity.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#43

Post by chinmoy » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 1:32 PM UTC

Wow....I thought these kind of companies stay and operate from the darkest corners of the internet, just like those CPA networks where you get paid to SPAM the hell out of the internet. Frustrating that these are coming mainstream and Y Combinator has backed one of them.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#44

Post by jiggy2011 » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 1:32 PM UTC

coderdude wrote: post #32

jfb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their users (scumware peddlers) aren't susceptible to market pressure from the poor bastards who end up with their vectored garbage ruining their computing experience. Where's the incentive to make less money, once it's nut-cutting time?

Like I said, review the software and get rid of the bad eggs. Not all of it will be bad, I'm sure, since not all of it is bad now. The incentive to leave some of the money on the table (the money from the bad people) is in not tanking your brand just to scrape in a few extra dollars.

The problem is that the end user is not the customer here, so the perception of their brand in the users eyes is nowhere near as important as the ROI they can deliver for the bundleware vendors.

Think of it like the IRS, they don't increase the tax take by being nice to people.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#45

Post by Adirael » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 1:33 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #34

kybernetyk wrote: post #24

The crapware situation on Windows is horrible. I'm a Mac/Linux user but from time to time I have to power up my Windows VM. A few days ago I wanted to install the Partition Magic trial on my Win XP VM. Having left Windows around 2005 I figured that typing "Partition Magic Win XP download" in Google would be helpful. I got a handful of "reputable" download sources like CNet and the like. I went there and was bombarded…

Agreed, a lot of the reasons that non technical users dislike Windows seem to be the result of these. It really takes control out of the users hands. We can see the origins of this becoming a problem on Ubuntu with Canonical adding stuff like the Amazon search and seemingly having no issue with bundleware as a means of monetisation. On the other hand I'm surprised this isn't more of an issue on the Mac, since Mac (es…

A lot of OS X apps are installed by dragging the app to /Applications, no installer involved, it may be one of the reasons.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#46

Post by paulsutter » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 1:34 PM UTC

These guys must be living in fear of Wire Fraud and Computer Fraud charges.

I'm less than half kidding. This is real destructive harm, so it's closer to the intent of the laws. The incredible churn rate is a pretty clear indication that end users dont want the software being installed. And here we have hundreds of thousands of systems compromised.

Selective enforcement of draconian laws is scary, really.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#47

Post by jiggy2011 » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 1:35 PM UTC

coderdude wrote: post #41

jiggy2011 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do we know what a "bad egg" is? Just because some behaviour is acceptable to "InstallMonetizer" does not mean it will necessarily be acceptable to me. Besides if they are seeking to maximise revenues for investors there will always be that incentive to find ways to justify bundling more intrusive stuff.

Like most people they probably know what sucks to have sprung on them. If they don't want their brand to suck as well then they can strive to align with peoples' expectations of how such software should behave. You don't like popups? I'll bet they know that. I think the investors can see the value in not tarnishing the brand and so that might fuel their efforts to make sure none of their advertisers can be classified…

Problem is that the end user is probably going to think "My computer is full of pop-ups wtf is going on?" not "oh, I have popups because I installed FreePornApp 2.0 which came with InstallMonitizer 3, I'll make sure not to get anything with that bundleware again".

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#48

Post by jfb » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 1:36 PM UTC

coderdude wrote: post #32

jfb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their users (scumware peddlers) aren't susceptible to market pressure from the poor bastards who end up with their vectored garbage ruining their computing experience. Where's the incentive to make less money, once it's nut-cutting time?

Like I said, review the software and get rid of the bad eggs. Not all of it will be bad, I'm sure, since not all of it is bad now. The incentive to leave some of the money on the table (the money from the bad people) is in not tanking your brand just to scrape in a few extra dollars.

If they increase the return of malware installs, their brand will be fine. And their investors will be happy.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#49

Post by jbk » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 1:37 PM UTC

I can speak quite a bit about this "industry": We (VLC) receive 1 of those offers per day.

They are liars, shady business, IP violators and are downright dangerous.

They have all those great offers for you, but they refuse to give any details as soon as you ask any question. More than half of them are "the biggest in the world" (sic). They lie about download numbers, about download size, about number of software actually installed and about their connexions. They even lie on the actual payback price.

If you refuse, they build special websites, copying yours, with your IP and trademark and register adwords with your name, in every way possible.

They also resell their solutions/websites to other people, using "Affiliate networks", so that once you take one down, 20 appear. And the guy who you took down had no idea who you were or what the software was...

They also have deals with download.com/softopedia/softonic to change/rewrap your installer, without your agreement, often violating your license; or they give back money to those websites, so they are ranked higher than normal other downloads.

And of course, open source software are never respected.

I believe OP is very polite: There are no good reasons to not shame them publicly.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#50

Post by jiggy2011 » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 1:37 PM UTC

Adirael wrote: post #45

jiggy2011 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, a lot of the reasons that non technical users dislike Windows seem to be the result of these. It really takes control out of the users hands. We can see the origins of this becoming a problem on Ubuntu with Canonical adding stuff like the Amazon search and seemingly having no issue with bundleware as a means of monetisation. On the other hand I'm surprised this isn't more of an issue on the Mac, since Mac (es…

A lot of OS X apps are installed by dragging the app to /Applications, no installer involved, it may be one of the reasons.

Not familiar with the OSX installation procedure, but I assume that dragging the app into the folder runs some installer script? Are there perhaps restrictions on what can be done via these scripts that would require 2 distinct actions to install say a browser toolbar and application?