Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago • Hacker News Board

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#481

Post by mistermann » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 5:34 AM UTC

roguecoder wrote: post #428

edw519 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may or may not have something to say about this, but not here, and not now. Can we please just let the family grieve? We are the family.

We are not "family". We are the people who called him Paris Hilton and told him to man up. We are the people who consistently criticized him just because he was well known. We told him to shut up about ethics and get back to coding. We told him he wasn't any good at coding, either. We didn't treat him as badly as we could have, as we've treated some other people, but I think trying to recast ourselves as "family" is…

I agree.

The hypocrisy on this topic has been truly something to behold. So many people calling for prosecutors to explain themselves, but whenever a question is asked of a local, it is "time to grieve, not ask questions."

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#482

Post by tzs » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 5:37 AM UTC

JohnsonB wrote: post #203

jacquesm wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(1) hindsight is 20-20 (2) the facts as we know then today were not readily apparent back then (even to those that were actively seeking those facts) (3) Ed has a longstanding history of compassion and care (4) mistakes were made, but there is nobody to apologise to. Can we please stop the mobbing? Thanks.

The feds going after a 20-something idealistic activist, who we all knew was completely harmless, and hadn't committed a real crime? That can't be anything other than a severe and cruel abuse of power. I'm sorry but enough information was known at the time to conclude what was going on.

His actions were not harmless, and seem to satisfy the elements of several real crimes [1].

[1] http://www.volokh.com/2013/01/14/aaron-swartz-charges/

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#483

Post by mscarborough » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 5:42 AM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #402

fermule wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about saying your sorry. Someone was asking for help and mr. edw519, just spit in his face with such absurd comments. Lets take a step back. Would you spit in the face of someone asking for help. What type of patronizing comments did edw519 make? He still hasn't said sorry and that tells me all I need to know about him and his ego. Shame on the members that supported edw519

edw519 is allowed to have an opinion, and his opinion does not, at least to me, seem unreasonable. Not everyone is going to agree with your civil disobedience actions, or you asking for help with the consequences. That doesn't make them bad people, or wrong people, for saying they don't like your approach, think you should accept consequences, or whatever else. For example, MLK didn't hate the clergymen that disagree…

How do you justify the change from "this guy deserves what was coming to him" (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4529484) to "OMG this is so sad" (mostly every thread since then, but also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5047846)?

It's so unapologetically hypocritical. We don't need to pretend like every tragedy affects us so deeply.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#484

Post by mistermann » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 5:48 AM UTC

MrScruff wrote: post #445

niggler wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Techcrunch publish an article singling out a single negative post (among many more) on HN from 120 days ago" Looking at the post, it would seem that edw's opinion was the most popular in the hivemind (judging by the upvotes on his comment), so it's fair to single out that post which summarized the thoughts of the many people upvoting. Unless people just arbitrarily upvoted him, which would have other ramifications .…

It's not fair to single out one individual, particularly when the not so subtle (and completely speculative) inference is that the discussion led to Swartz's suicide.

Many here would disagree with you, provided the person being singled out is a prosecutor.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#485

Post by illuminate » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 5:50 AM UTC

illuminate wrote: post #463

derleth wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I stated, it does by lessening strict gender roles. But that's also true of looking at gender equality from the male perspective, yet whenever someone attempts that the old MRA strawman stereotypes get thrown around.

"But that's also true of looking at gender equality from the male perspective, yet whenever someone attempts that the old MRA strawman stereotypes get thrown around." Generally, it's because MRAs tend to find gains for women zero-sum. There are issues with regards to divorce, child support, and custody that can be discussed, but all these can be addressed as a feminist and do not require "masculinism" as some sort of…

"In my experience, any mention of the idea that men can be raped by women, for example, gets shouted down by 'feminists'"

Like I said, there's no need to craft Straw Feminists from whole cloth. Make your points without these fabrications.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#486

Post by Dn_Ab » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 5:53 AM UTC

Permit wrote: post #343

Dn_Ab wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a comment below you state NOBODY KNEW THESE DETAILS AT THE TIME That is exactly why judgement should have been deferred. In the face of uncertainty, given the situation, withholding comment or querying neutrally would have been optimal. That is clear with foresight, not just obvious from hindsight. I did not see that thread the first time but it is the tone and not the words that would be so damaging. Man up . Ver…

YOU STILL DON'T KNOW THE DETAILS. There was no suicide note. There was no reason given. The closest thing we have is a suggestion from his family, which caused everyone to instantly jump on one of three different bandwagons getting as many people fired and as many laws changed as possible. We have no idea of gauging whether or not that suggestion is correct, so we all read in to things we THINK suggest the reasons fo…

There was his blog. Alas I did not frequent the right part of the internet to have fixed him to mind but those who read his blog should have seen someone who has for sometime struggled with his state.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#487

Post by Dn_Ab » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 5:55 AM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #246

Dn_Ab wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a comment below you state NOBODY KNEW THESE DETAILS AT THE TIME That is exactly why judgement should have been deferred. In the face of uncertainty, given the situation, withholding comment or querying neutrally would have been optimal. That is clear with foresight, not just obvious from hindsight. I did not see that thread the first time but it is the tone and not the words that would be so damaging. Man up . Ver…

If everybody withheld comment until they knew the full story, nobody would post on Hacker News. Hell, people still don't know the full story of the Aaron Swartz court case, and yet you see an awful lot of folks willing to comment with the few tidbits they do know right now.

This is not a generic claim on all to withhold comment pending details. Nothing so general. What I am saying is if someone asks for help, particularly in so public a manner, it would be useful to assume by default that things are more complex than they seem.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#488

Post by eranation » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 5:58 AM UTC

Can we be a little nicer?

There were nasty comments about Aaron in that HN post, which got nasty replies.

There were nasty comments about Ed in this thread, which got nasty replies.

There were nasty comments about Michael in the linked post, which got nasty replies.

We can say the most criticizing things in a way that is not nasty, how? but putting question marks instead of exclamation points. By talking about facts and not opinions. By being aware that the persona we are taking about is also a person, by always thinking what if I was on the other end of that comment.

Is there any drawback in being nicer? I can't think of any. Is there any benefit for being nasty? I can't think of any either.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#489

Post by nextstep » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 6:25 AM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #480

I'm not sure why I'm commenting here, I expect it'll just be shouting into the void given the nature of this thread. However, there are some things that rub me the wrong way about all this, so maybe I'll try to make a few points. One thing that's been bugging me is how, to be blunt, intellectually lazy so many people seem to have been about this whole thing, especially the case against Aaron. Everyone is looking for…

Exactly. In a few sentences, edw519 took apart Aaron's whole life and claimed to know enough to write off his plea for help. I think a good first step would be for Ed to apologize and stop trying to defend his rude comment from 4 months ago.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#490

Post by cypherpunks01 » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 6:28 AM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #480

I'm not sure why I'm commenting here, I expect it'll just be shouting into the void given the nature of this thread. However, there are some things that rub me the wrong way about all this, so maybe I'll try to make a few points. One thing that's been bugging me is how, to be blunt, intellectually lazy so many people seem to have been about this whole thing, especially the case against Aaron. Everyone is looking for…

Reading Aaron's article "Fix the machine, not the person" http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/nummi indicates to me that the public discussion he'd like to have seen (and very sadly never got the chance to) is as you indicate - whether the law is actually appropriate in this and similar cases, and how to change its overall structure as opposed to punishing those who appear blame-worthy on the surface. As he writes, "It wasn’t the workers who were the problem; it was the system."

The new EFF post https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/01/aaron-swartz-fix-draco... seems particularly relevant in highlighting some of the insanity that has come to be U.S. computer crime case law.

I am suddenly reminded of a Thoreau quote that Aaron's friend Laurence Lessig used in the opening of his book, Republic, Lost - "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." I think a lot of people admire Aaron for being one of the latter.