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Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

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Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#431

Post by niggler »

mcantelon wrote: post #376
edw519 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may or may not have something to say about this, but not here, and not now. Can we please just let the family grieve? We are the family.

>Can we please just let the family grieve? You can also "man up" and admit you might have been wrong to characterize a hacker, however successful, asking for financial help in the face of a very serious legal battle as "seriously wrong". No shame in that. Or, alternatively, you can "man up" and own your original opinion.

This is HN. I don't think edw519 or any of the critics back then would change their mind as a result of the suicide, not because they don't care but because reacting to the suicide would be an emotional reaction and the critics made their opinions based on an unchanged set of facts. It's clear even back then that the core facts were known.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#432

Post by roguecoder »

davemel37 wrote: post #350
edw519 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may or may not have something to say about this, but not here, and not now. Can we please just let the family grieve? We are the family.

I am surprised people have taken issue with the words man up. It's only connotation was that Aaron should pay for his own defense, a reasonable statement. I am more taken aback by the overall tone implying that Aaron had some golden-ticket-chance-of-a-lifetime...In hindsight, I don't think anyone would have wanted to shoulder his burdens. I don't think anyone would still say he had a golden ticket. Probably the great…

It's connotation was that Aaron was acting like a woman. The intended message was that he should shoulder sole responsibility for the costs, unlike (apparently) a woman. A) that's sexist and B) counter-productive. Collaboration and mutual support gets us further than we can get on our own: demonizing those traits as "feminine" just leads to lonely alienation.

Yet Another Way Patriarchy Hurts Men(tm)

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#433

Post by niggler »

MrScruff wrote: post #393
fermule wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about saying your sorry. Someone was asking for help and mr. edw519, just spit in his face with such absurd comments. Lets take a step back. Would you spit in the face of someone asking for help. What type of patronizing comments did edw519 make? He still hasn't said sorry and that tells me all I need to know about him and his ego. Shame on the members that supported edw519

I say shame on all the people creating throwaway accounts to sling mud around. 'Let's take a step back.' Techcrunch publish an article singling out a single negative post (among many more) on HN from 120 days ago, and suddenly the pitchfork brigade are screaming for an apology within the hour. No need to worry about the bullying prosecutor any more officer, we've found the man! Because clearly none of these people ha…

"Techcrunch publish an article singling out a single negative post (among many more) on HN from 120 days ago"

Looking at the post, it would seem that edw's opinion was the most popular in the hivemind (judging by the upvotes on his comment), so it's fair to single out that post which summarized the thoughts of the many people upvoting.

Unless people just arbitrarily upvoted him, which would have other ramifications ...

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#434

Post by pygy_ »

hugi wrote: post #386
edw519 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may or may not have something to say about this, but not here, and not now. Can we please just let the family grieve? We are the family.

You should have "manned up" and stood by your own words. But you seem to have deleted everything you said about Aaron.

> But you seem to have deleted everything you said about Aaron.

Uh? It's right here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4529484

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#435

Post by blader »

roguecoder wrote: post #428
edw519 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may or may not have something to say about this, but not here, and not now. Can we please just let the family grieve? We are the family.

We are not "family". We are the people who called him Paris Hilton and told him to man up. We are the people who consistently criticized him just because he was well known. We told him to shut up about ethics and get back to coding. We told him he wasn't any good at coding, either. We didn't treat him as badly as we could have, as we've treated some other people, but I think trying to recast ourselves as "family" is…

Just - thank you.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#436

Post by pygy_ »

jspthrowaway2 wrote: post #51
oinksoft wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more cynical observation is that users with high "karma" point totals earn this by parroting the majority opinion or otherwise treating comment threads as a game.

Some users get upvoted fairly quickly by username alone, too. Think pg, edw519, patio11, tptacek; I've noticed comments from them will have upvotes in seconds, regardless of content. It's just name recognition, for better or worse. pg could probably leave a comment saying only "This is a comment." and get a hundred points of karma off it. (I'd pay him to try.) So, to an outside observer, you might suggest that these…

Not only they get free upvotes, but the people who disagree with them sometimes get free downvotes.

See here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5033743

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#437

Post by barrkel »

encoderer wrote: post #195
angrycoder wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An honest appraisal? That is one way of looking at it. Another way is he threw out a giant derogatory 'Meh' to someone asking for help. Does he bear responsibility for what happened to Aaron? No, but it is also not hard to see how the top ranked comment from a respected member didn't carry some weight in how people perceived Aaron and his situation. The big take away here is that words matter and maybe if you don't h…

I up-voted his original comment I would do so again. Aaron knew what he was doing. There are many charities more deserving than his legal defense fund -- that isn't changed just because he was apparently mentally ill enough to take his own life. There should be a high burden you have to overcome to successfully find crowd-funding for anything including a legal defense.

I don't think he knew what he was doing.

I've written on my blog about my own encounters with him; but the biggest thing that stands out was his naivete, his childlike perspective.

It's telling so many eulogies of him describe him as a boy.

IMO, it was his innocent perspective, combined with what he thought was the clear and obvious path, that drove him to do what he did, not understanding the consequences.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#438

Post by Milagre »

jonmc12 wrote: post #421
edw519 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may or may not have something to say about this, but not here, and not now. Can we please just let the family grieve? We are the family.

To all those replying to edw519 - please stop witch-hunting. First prosecutor, then MIT, then.. edw519? Its possible any of these parties made a mistake.. now that they can look back and reflect. But, even after reflection its very possible that each party made the best decision they could with the information at hand. Maybe I'm lucky, but I find 99%+ of people I meet in this world are well intentioned, and if I inve…

> When you start with the point of view that we are all reasonable, and well intentioned.. the problem then becomes about process and culture, and you can actually start making progress.

In my studies of nonviolent resistance, this was the core message: People act on what they feel is the right thing to do at the time. If the world deems that wrong, that's a different discussion, and a learning experience for both the world and the actor.

In order to make progress, you must empathize with that person, communicate with them on their terms, and open a discussion on both of your beliefs without judgement.

+1 jonmc12 for your point of view.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#439

Post by grandalf »

DanBC2 wrote: post #351
grandalf wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Severe duress often cannot be clearly distinguished from "mental illness" I 100% agree with this in terms of its accuracy in describing the symptoms. And I do not think mental illness should be stigmatized any more than other illnesses should be (which is not at all). The key though is that once mental illness occurs, rationality goes out the window. To a large extent causality goes out the window. You can't persuade…

> The key though is that once mental illness occurs, rationality goes out the window. A minor nitpick: In UK law we have the Mental Capacity Act. People must not be seen as lacking capacity to make decisions just because they have a mental health illness. Even someone detained against their will under section of the Mental Health Act can make decisions about their care. But your point - "People with major depression…

That's an important distinction. Certainly suffering from a degree of mental illness does not hinder many of the kinds of decisions needed to maintain personal freedom and dignity, etc.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#440

Post by roguecoder »

django34211 wrote: post #153
[deleted] wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

"Aaron should man up, take responsibility for his actions, and pay his own bills." ~Ed Sounds like Ed was a bit harsh on someone who was going through allot of trouble. The comment was excessively cruel. Not to mention it was the top comment, which must of added large dosage of salt on an already wounded soul. So he(Ed) rightfully deserves any criticism thrown at him. It's such a tool bag comment, Ed should apologize…

Ed commented in the general tone of HN. His comment was unexceptional, except that later events called it out as such.

Focusing on Ed is counter-productive. What should be the topic is the harmful, negative and alienating tone that HN comments adopt. The upvotes that such comments garner show that they are not individual actions, but rather the result of community incentives.

I'd like to hear suggestions of how to cultivate useful, supportive, productive comment threads. That is, of course, if the community decides it wants to change, rather than just heaping scorn on a single instance of a systematic problem.

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