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Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

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Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#221

Post by amputect »

[deleted] wrote: post #181
amputect wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right; his lazy, incurious dismissal of the news article didn't make Aaron kill himself. EVERYONE's lazy, incurious dismissal of the news article and the surrounding circumstances (Myself included; I am ashamed that when I read that article my {unposted} response was "not my problem, good luck dude"), taken in aggregate, made him kill himself. Ed just has the bad luck to be the most widely upvoted person sayin…

[deleted]

Please forgive me; I do not think that hacker culture is a bad thing. I think that hackers are, for the most part, wonderful people. I think that the aspects of hacker culture you mentioned are good, positive, and praiseworthy things. I just believe that SOME ASPECTS of hacker culture are problematic. I didn't mean to dismiss the entirety of it, or disparage hackers in general, and I'm sorry it came out that way. I just felt like this might be a good opportunity to ask people to try to, for lack of a better phrase, be excellent to each other.

We should be like this, all the time: "Hacker culture positively celebrates failure... Its overriding ethos is working together and helping each other out..."

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#222

Post by thaumaturgy »

jacquesm wrote: post #201
thaumaturgy wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this sentiment at all. What's wrong with simply not commenting? HN isn't a semi-private coffee shop; this whole post illustrates quite nicely that what is said here is public and long-lasting. Let's try this on for a little more discomfort: what do you think the odds are that Aaron himself read the comments of a few threads posted here about his case? Your entire argument here seems predicated upon…

> what do you think the odds are that Aaron himself read the comments of a few threads posted here about his case? About 100% or so. That's the bit that hurts the most. The simple solution is this: If you're going to say something positive, absent information feel free to do so. On the other hand, if you're going to say something negative you'd better make damn sure you know what it is that you're talking about. If y…

Jacques, incidentally, I think you deserve some praise for being a real stand-up guy here. Aside from being generally a heck of a decent person, you're one of the few here who seems to have taken some actual action throughout this -- reaching out to Aaron to offer assistance, and, later, contacting Lessig to follow up on the EFF's involvement.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#223

Post by shock »

Tichy wrote: post #173
shock wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's your defense? "He didn't know!"? Try that in a court of law.

Which we don't need, because a bunch of HN commentators handily volunteered to conduct a trial on the spot, right? Forming mobs is really what humans do best.

I wonder if that's what Aaron felt when he asked for help: that HN had formed a mob against him. That's certainly the impression I get from reading the original HN thread (that HN turned into a mob against Aaron), yet there's not a single comment directing HN's attention to the fact that they were behaving like a mob.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#224

Post by graue »

lancefisher wrote: post #82

I distinctly remember that thread, and not commenting. I was disappointed at the responses. I had given a small amount towards his defense fund since I thought his goals were worthwhile. I consider it a privilege to have contributed. Now, I wish I had given more, and I wish I had commented on that thread. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke

That Edmund Burke quote just spurred me to donate $X (where X=a substantial amount relative to my income) to Demand Progress in Aaron's memory. Thanks.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#226

Post by thaumaturgy »

RegEx wrote: post #208
thaumaturgy wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, here's the problem. In one sentence you're arguing that he should "accept the consequences", and in literally the very next sentence, you're describing how bad the consequences ended up being. That is what is wrong with saying, "just accept the consequences", when you have no damn idea what the consequences are.

> when you have no damn idea what the consequences are Because this is unprecedented. People are still shocked at the excessive nature of the charges. No one expected it. To expect everything to be so severe would be paranoia.

I guess that's fair. I honestly hadn't considered that; I've had enough dealings with the justice system to know that it's impossible to overestimate the damage they're willing to do to someone's life when it suits them.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#227

Post by nostrademons »

citricsquid wrote: post #174
woah wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He certainly seemed to support the outrageous, overreaching prosecution that Aaron was facing. "Aaron should man up, take responsibility for his actions, and pay his own bills." This sounds a lot like "screw you, what you did is wrong, and you should quit whining about it." "man up" clearly implies that Ed Weissman feels that going up against the massive US justice system to allow people without university affiliatio…

Aaron did something wrong [/edit: wrong in the eyes of the law: illegal, poor word choice/], something that he knew was wrong and that is an accepted fact, correct? If he did something he knew was wrong then what edw519 said is right, he should "man up" and accept the consequences, as everyone should do when they do something wrong. The problem is what has come to light since that post was made, it has come to light…

I'm not entirely certain that Aaron knew he was doing something wrong, or, for that matter, whether he was in fact doing something wrong. It seems he made little effort to cover his tracks and pretty much acted out in the open. And from what I've heard from friends who've met him in person - Aaron was brilliant, idealistic, a nice guy, and hopelessly naive about how the world actually works.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#228

Post by Mz »

grandalf wrote: post #211
Mz wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I attempted suicide at age 17. I am very clear it was due to social and physical factors, not mental illness. I blogged about that yesterday. I doubt you care, but this accusation of "he was merely mentally ill, the way he was being treated by people doesn't matter" is something I think is pure evil and merely an excuse to say "not my problem" and cover your ass.

Not merely mentally ill. Mental health in general should be taken more seriously. Many of our institutional systems (schools, prisons, etc.) are not conducive to habits that promote good mental health. Please be assured I am not dismissive of the importance of it. Also, people can have lapses in their mental health and then recover. There are also most certainly lots of factors that can push people to their limits. I…

I have a genetic disorder. At the time I attempted suicide, I was undiagnosed. In part for that reason, I ended up with severe low blood sugar while also under severe social duress. The short version is that relatives who knew the man I was arguing with had molested me as a child were telling me to "behave" instead of telling him to stfu. The severe low blood sugar interfered with my plans to slash my wrists. Had I been clearer-headed, I likely would have succeeded. I had a scar from an old accident marking exactly where to cut myself to successfully bleed out. Instead, I ended up with a really insignificant flesh wound. You can read the blog post if you want more details.

I still find your remarks objectionable. Severe duress often cannot be clearly distinguished from "mental illness". I have seen too many stories where someone was dismissed as paranoid, a drama queen, mentally ill, making shit up, etc where it later turned out their "dramatics" were 100% true.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#229

Post by cstejerean »

RegEx wrote: post #213
JohnsonB wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The feds going after a 20-something idealistic activist, who we all knew was completely harmless, and hadn't committed a real crime? That can't be anything other than a severe and cruel abuse of power. I'm sorry but enough information was known at the time to conclude what was going on.

What information? I'd legitimately appreciate links/sources of the situation's severity other than hindsight.

It didn't help that the people trying to shed light on the severity of the situation were met with comments like http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4529716

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#230

Post by derleth »

citricsquid wrote: post #174
woah wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He certainly seemed to support the outrageous, overreaching prosecution that Aaron was facing. "Aaron should man up, take responsibility for his actions, and pay his own bills." This sounds a lot like "screw you, what you did is wrong, and you should quit whining about it." "man up" clearly implies that Ed Weissman feels that going up against the massive US justice system to allow people without university affiliatio…

Aaron did something wrong [/edit: wrong in the eyes of the law: illegal, poor word choice/], something that he knew was wrong and that is an accepted fact, correct? If he did something he knew was wrong then what edw519 said is right, he should "man up" and accept the consequences, as everyone should do when they do something wrong. The problem is what has come to light since that post was made, it has come to light…

> accept the consequences

Everyone has to accept the consequences. Reality doesn't allow you not to. There's no way to 'log out' of the real world; the most you can do is kill yourself, and then your suicide becomes the consequence.

Whenever someone says "accept the consequences" they mean "accept the consequences in silence", as opposed to accepting them under vocal protest and attempting to challenge them. When the consequences are unjust, accepting them in silence is acquiescing to the injustice, which only serves to perpetuate it.

Merely accepting the consequences is inevitable; accepting the consequences in silence is a choice, and it is not always the best choice.

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