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Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

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Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#191

Post by vidarh »

newman314 wrote: post #157
jowiar wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I severely disagree with this, and find it one of the most destructive mentalities persistent in society. I have a good friend whose father was abusive, and a perfectionist. My friend, as a consequence, holds everyone to an impossible standard - most of all herself - and it's sad to watch, especially given that she's one of the most brilliant, passionate, hard-working people I know. When you expect and demand perfect…

Say, someone accidentally runs one of your family members over. Would you be satisfied with a "Oops, my bad"?

If it is an accident, exactly what purpose would punishing them serve?

If it was due to negligence, then there is the issue of to what extent it has a preventative effect.

I'm Norwegian. One of the aspects of the Norwegian legal systems is short prison sentences. The legal maximum sentence is 21 years with a recent modification that allows for extensions (this must be included in the conviction, and is restricted to particularly severe crimes) if the prisoner is considered to still be a risk to society. On top of this, a prisoner is usually let out after 2/3 is served, assuming good behaviour, and will get time limited parole even before that (such as weekends with their family).

So a few months ago, for example, a major newspaper published an interview with a woman convicted of a double murder a decade or so ago, carried out at a cafe while she was out of prison for the day on one of her first parole days. In this case still accompanied by a police officer.

And you know what? I'm happy about that, because we also have one of the lowest re-offending rates.

Vengeance is not a good basis for a legal system.

And if what you want is to minimize harm to the public (and that includes those you put in prison, before someone gets the bright idea that lifetime confinement is a solution), punishment simply doesn't work very well.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#192

Post by elgatotriste »

lutze wrote: post #85
jordanb wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I don't care if she spends her nights and weekends caring for orphans and war widows. She's a politician who treated Aaron Swartz as a pawn in the political game she is playing. No doubt she intended for her campaign for governor to describe her as a "staunch defender of intellectual property rights" who, as prosecutor, put a "dangerous hacker behind bars" for "breaking into MIT and stealing millions of doll…

I think you're missing the point vis a vis "fix the machine, not the person". The tactics described in the petition are ingrained in the US justice system. Getting rid of a single prosecutor isn't going to change a damn thing because the injustices are systemic, not the product of a vindictive individual. Like Aaron said, shouting at the gears isn't going to fix the machine.

I think you are missing the point! The machine is persons'!!!

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#194

Post by Caballera »

BrianPaone wrote: post #183

Signed. It'll hit 25k before the day's out, I bet. But it needs to hit 311 million.

Not sure if it's just me, but when I checked the petition about an hour ago, when I woke up, there were just over 20K signers, now I check and the number has gone down to 19,879.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#195

Post by Caballera »

Caballera wrote: post #194
BrianPaone wrote: post #183

Signed. It'll hit 25k before the day's out, I bet. But it needs to hit 311 million.

Not sure if it's just me, but when I checked the petition about an hour ago, when I woke up, there were just over 20K signers, now I check and the number has gone down to 19,879.

Nevermind, i see i was reading the wrong side of the numbers.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#197

Post by Turing_Machine »

vidarh wrote: post #191
newman314 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say, someone accidentally runs one of your family members over. Would you be satisfied with a "Oops, my bad"?

If it is an accident, exactly what purpose would punishing them serve? If it was due to negligence, then there is the issue of to what extent it has a preventative effect. I'm Norwegian. One of the aspects of the Norwegian legal systems is short prison sentences. The legal maximum sentence is 21 years with a recent modification that allows for extensions (this must be included in the conviction, and is restricted to…

"punishment simply doesn't work very well."

Nonsense.

This isn't like like murder or robbery, where the criminal can more or less reoffend at will. You can't prosecute unless you are an official, government-recognized prosecutor. If she is removed from her job, she won't be able to prosecute anyone ever again.

That will work just fine.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#198

Post by rgbrenner »

btilly wrote: post #38
lmkg wrote: post #26

While Cameron Ortiz' actions towards Aaron Swartz were unjust, I think that she is receiving an unduly large share of the ire, and as a result, several other agents and factors in this scenario are receiving an unduly small share. While I don't particularly want to defend her, I believe that a) justice is never served well by a lynch mob b) other actors are more deserving of blame , and by focusing on Ortiz we give t…

The truth is that every prosecutor faces too many possible cases to actually pursue, and so has to choose which ones to focus on. A prosecutor may try to be neutral, but the basic act of triage forces you to show your biases. In this case Aaron stuck a laptop in an unlocked closet, used curl to download lots of links, and did absolutely nothing to hide his tracks because he did not think he was doing anything wrong.…

"did absolutely nothing to hide his tracks"

Rewriting history to fit your own narrative helps no one. He did plenty to hide his tracks:

1) when he connected the laptop to MITs network, he used a fake name (Gary Host/Grace Host) 2) when his MAC was banned by MIT, he changed it 3) he used his helmet to hide his face from a camera when he accessed MITs networking closet 4) he hid the laptop in the closet underneath a cardboard box 5) when he retrieved the laptop from the networking closet, he then went to SIPB and hid the laptop underneath a table 6) when police finally found him, he jumped off his bike and ran from police

He did all of that.. and you're telling me he did not think anything he was doing was wrong? That's a little far fetched.

How about you stop rewriting things, and just tell them how they are?

http://tech.mit.edu/V131/N30/swartz.html

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#199

Post by Turing_Machine »

warmwaffles wrote: post #161
jordanb wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ending her career would set a very clear precedent that other prosecutors would have no difficulty understanding. N'est pas?

You do realize, that you are suggesting we do "eye for an eye" right? She decided to drive a tack with a sledge hammer, and you are calling for us to do the same? I do think she is wrong, but attempting to do the same to her makes us no better than them.

Firing a bad employee is not "the same" as sending someone to federal prison for 30 years or hounding them to suicide.

So in your view, employees should never be fired no matter how bad they screw up?

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#200

Post by msbpodcast »

The zeal with which Carmen Ortiz showed in prosecuting the case against Aaron Swartz shows a criminal lack of discernment on the prosecutor's part which directly led to Mr. Swartz death.

The prosecutor should be removed as judgement (or lack thereof) has resulted in a tragic miscarriage of justice for the defendant.

The defendant was not a hardened criminal, but he was treated as if he was.

The case involved no violence, breaking in, no drugs, no profit.

The employing of such heavy-handed techniques that the defendant would prefer to end his life rather than face whatever punishment the prosecutor was proffering was entirely inappropriate.

The crime was one of accessing JSTORs files which, since the files are locked behind a paywall, contain information which JSTOR was NOT involved in creating, the legality of JSTOR ownership is questionable.

This is a case of prosecutorial over-reach. Carmen Ortiz is incompetent at best or malevolent at worst.

Let such individuals find employment in other professions where discernement or judgement are not required.

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