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Why you shouldn't do what Aaron did

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Re: Why you shouldn't do what Aaron did

#131
Is it possible to have a rational discussion on suicide without it offending someone's own will to live?

Is there a natural law that suicide breaches, is this why it upsets and offends so many at the thought?

I'm personally of the deep belief that suicide is an option. And it's also something I think of at times. I think of suicide when I'm up, when I'm down... but generally never when I have a struggle and something to fight for. I think of suicide semi-frequently and always have.

I view suicide as an option because I don't believe in afterlife, or that life is a gift (from whom? we're supposed to be thankful how?)... life and personal existence is a bizarre improbable thing, we are here but nothing follows and nothing will remain of us in the grand scheme of things.

When you know life is fundamentally irrelevant, that we are but a speck of dust... what's the difference between a span of 40 years and a span of 80 years?

I like to think that life should be qualitatively lived, struggles endured in a constant hope of experiencing a high-quality of living.

Is there anything so deeply flawed with viewing my life as being mine to do with as I please, and also acknowledging that if I come to some point that a remainder of my life would be lived in misery that I might choose to exercise a right over my life to end it on a qualitative high?

I don't find that these arguments differ greatly from those in terminal illness (whom most would sympathise with), but like many things that are unseen (mental illness, emotional state, state of happiness or sadness)... the unseen seem to be accepted as being unreal, fixable, unacceptable.

Yet there are times that suicide can almost be thought of as noble. When a lover dies and the lone lover pines so greatly and finds that they cannot continue to have any quality of life without the other person.

I don't believe that I've ever been clinically depressed, and am a very optimistic and hopeful person. Yet my reasoning isn't offended or appalled when I see reports of suicide, and nor could I make a claim that I would never consider it. It is, for me, part of living... as death is for everyone... and as we ponder death beyond our control, I also ponder death within our control.

I find it hard to comprehend the reaction of others to stories of suicide that seem to follow misconceptions about someone having to be depressed, or the time of year... I don't think suicide is the product of a person with a fault in some way, I find it to be a rational thing.

Re: Why you shouldn't do what Aaron did

#132
post #34

I think this is the stage where the religion or faith come to rescue. We in life faces things where you find no logical way out other than looking for someone who we believe is superior than us. We surrender to that force and try get calm as much as we can.

Possibly. I was deeply religious for most of my life, but that unraveled about seven years ago.

I would love going back to that life. My father is a pastor, and he and the Christianity and Christians I grew up with were the 'good' kind. If I were gay, he'd be one of the first to know, for example.

The problem is that being a Christian without actually believing any of it is 1) difficult, if not impossible to keep up, and 2) less effective, perhaps almost ineffective.

And I can't just 'will' myself to believe it, unfortunately...

Re: Why you shouldn't do what Aaron did

#133
post #103
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad it works for you, but I find it sad that atheism and life having no purpose depresses you. That life has no purpose effectively means that there is freedom. It is very scary, but we have to choose the purpose for ourselves. What we "lose" (it was never there actually) is the belief in an external, all-knowing guiding force that somehow makes everything we do ok. However, there are still guiding forces you ca…

Its not surprising that it depresses me. You say "choose the purpose for ourselves" but how can one be absolutely confident they are making the right choice? If they are not absolutely confident -- then why would they let the guiding principles of their entire life be something they're unsure of? Should they simply do what makes them happiest? No, most people agree that doing what makes you happiest is not an answer…

I think you are mixing some things together. For starters, you should distinguish between a "life's purpose" that you set for yourself, and one that you assume for other people. You can only decide for yourself, not for other people. You may wish other people had specific values, and try to enforce them with violence, but you can not decide for them.

Next, you should distinguish between a goal or purpose and the means to achieve it. If you goal is to achieve world peace, it doesn't imply that you know about a sure way to achieve it, and you don't have a guarantee that the steps you take are the right ones. That doesn't imply that it is useless to try, though.

Ultimately, what I find sad is that apparently you need some external validation for your existence. You can not stand on your own. It is as if you were missing a leg - that would be sad, no?

I am not sure how to describe it better. I think if you are feeling emptiness and can't appreciate things, very likely the reason is much more basic than "a general lack of meaning in life". Personally I think it is much more likely that the root cause are emotional problems in your life, loneliness, not getting along with family and friends and stuff like that.

Good luck in finding your way!

Re: Why you shouldn't do what Aaron did

#134
post #131

Is it possible to have a rational discussion on suicide without it offending someone's own will to live? Is there a natural law that suicide breaches, is this why it upsets and offends so many at the thought? I'm personally of the deep belief that suicide is an option. And it's also something I think of at times. I think of suicide when I'm up, when I'm down... but generally never when I have a struggle and something…

In the West, the vast majority of people who kill themselves do so as a direct result of depression. Their perceptions distorted, and their decision-making skills are impaired. If you find this "hard to comprehend", then perhaps you should re-examine your assumptions.

Re: Why you shouldn't do what Aaron did

#135
post #131

Is it possible to have a rational discussion on suicide without it offending someone's own will to live? Is there a natural law that suicide breaches, is this why it upsets and offends so many at the thought? I'm personally of the deep belief that suicide is an option. And it's also something I think of at times. I think of suicide when I'm up, when I'm down... but generally never when I have a struggle and something…

[deleted]

Re: Why you shouldn't do what Aaron did

#136
post #103
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad it works for you, but I find it sad that atheism and life having no purpose depresses you. That life has no purpose effectively means that there is freedom. It is very scary, but we have to choose the purpose for ourselves. What we "lose" (it was never there actually) is the belief in an external, all-knowing guiding force that somehow makes everything we do ok. However, there are still guiding forces you ca…

Its not surprising that it depresses me. You say "choose the purpose for ourselves" but how can one be absolutely confident they are making the right choice? If they are not absolutely confident -- then why would they let the guiding principles of their entire life be something they're unsure of? Should they simply do what makes them happiest? No, most people agree that doing what makes you happiest is not an answer…

The physical laws of the universe iterated for a long time to produce a way to know itself: the individual conscious being. The individual conscious being is the only part of the universe capable of exerting control over itself, and thus the singly most powerful object in the universe is you, except for the competition and collaboration of your fellow conscious beings. Your local basis for value is what is good for you vs bad for you. Abstract this to the basis for value to all individual conscious beings and you can see why preventing others from doing what is best for them by using force is bad. Not only would it trigger others to try to protect themselves by harming you, but it would also remove the benefits of collaboration.

Re: Why you shouldn't do what Aaron did

#137
post #127

I'm going to put my thoughts down here. The sections will be: Work Escorting and sexuality Drug and alcohol addiction Family Attention What I want The plan WORK I work as a software engineer. Well, I would, if I was able to hold a job for more than 6 months without the company getting tired of me. I'm good at what I do. My bosses love my output. I have open source projects and contributions. Even on my first programm…

Yeah, it doesn't sound like your life is that horrible objectively, and could easily improve. It sounds sound objectively empty, and you could easily be depressed in addition to that, but "empty" isn't the worst thing in the world, and isn't permanent, unlike death. Why not just contract (so the 6mo thing isn't a problem), and ramp down the coke/liquor. Other than that, it sounds like things will get better with time…

"ramp down the coke/liquor"

It's not that easy. Tried to quit before and I can't last more than 48 hours without hallucinating.

"SF or NYC if you want to be a SW engineer"

Would love to move to SF, but like you guessed I'm in the UK (London). Getting a visa is very difficult.

Re: Why you shouldn't do what Aaron did

#138
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad it works for you, but I find it sad that atheism and life having no purpose depresses you. That life has no purpose effectively means that there is freedom. It is very scary, but we have to choose the purpose for ourselves. What we "lose" (it was never there actually) is the belief in an external, all-knowing guiding force that somehow makes everything we do ok. However, there are still guiding forces you ca…

I find it sad that you find it sad. There is nothing sad about depression caused by the acknowledgement of purposefulness. Lack of purpose is sad.

I agree if you talk about a subjective feeling of purpose. It's depressing to feel you can not achieve what you aspire to.

I don't agree that an external power that prescribes some random notion of purpose is necessary.

Re: Why you shouldn't do what Aaron did

#139
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes work. It's about listening to your pain and guiding your life away from it. I can't emphasize that enough - pain is a profound teacher. It tells you when you need to fix something. It takes work to understand pain, and then to pursue its solution.

Well, the problem is that I don't have anything to be proud of. All things I've really worked hard with I do without progression. I've tried to learn programming, failed. I've tried to get abs, failed. I've tried to get girlfriend, failed. And I still trying but now after years and years I feel so worthless...

Language is stronger than you imagine. When you tell yourself "I have failed at X," you are telling yourself that it is no longer possible. You stop trying, and your lower mind stops presenting you with ideas for how to proceed or potential opportunities to pursue and learn from. Reframing is a powerful technique, both when dealing with bad thoughts and with other people. Change your internal language to something along the lines of "I have an incorrect assumption about X that is preventing me from achieving it. It is worth it if an experiment for achieving X doesn't work out, because it has a good chance of yielding information that will help me get there eventually. I want X because in learning how to achieve it, it will make me feel A, B, and C."

You are far from being able to say that you have failed at anything. You are making ridiculous assumptions that bring you endless suffering for as long as you hold them. So stop assuming so many things that both prevent you from improving and make you feel helpless. You are feeling pain but you aren't listening to the assumptions about reality that it is trying to educate you about. The pain will continue and most likely become worse until you put in the effort to understand it.

Re: Why you shouldn't do what Aaron did

#140
post #131

Is it possible to have a rational discussion on suicide without it offending someone's own will to live? Is there a natural law that suicide breaches, is this why it upsets and offends so many at the thought? I'm personally of the deep belief that suicide is an option. And it's also something I think of at times. I think of suicide when I'm up, when I'm down... but generally never when I have a struggle and something…

In the West, the vast majority of people who kill themselves do so as a direct result of depression. Their perceptions distorted, and their decision-making skills are impaired. If you find this "hard to comprehend", then perhaps you should re-examine your assumptions.

The vast majority being 75% ( http://www.csun.edu/~vmd53178/misconceptions.htm )

Which still leaves a quarter of suicides by those not clinically depressed. Hence my argument that generalising depression as the cause of suicide without knowing the individuals involved is a gross generalisation that is in itself offensive to the 25% who are not depressed.

I've known two people reasonably well who committed suicide. One was a family member, the other a good friend. Neither was clinically depressed, or even occasionally so.

Both had attempted to have rational discussions on it in the many months and years before... hence my question: Why is it that we can't seem to have rational discussions on suicide?

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