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1/13 noon at MIT: Protest wrongful prosecution of Aaron Swartz

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Re: 1/13 noon at MIT: Protest wrongful prosecution of Aaron Swartz

#41

Post by aes256 »

robomartin wrote: post #39

I've been taking all of this in trying to both formulate a reasonably valid mental framework to understand and, yes, be able to personally judge or form an opinion about this entire story. Not an easy task when you don't have direct knowledge of the facts and the people involved and, to make matters worst, morons add noise to the wire. To say that this is a catastrophe at many levels is an understatement. This should…

> At some level you do have to blame him. No, not for downloading files but rather for making the decision to end his life. Nobody but him made that decision.

At the risk of being branded insensitive, I do have to agree with this sentiment. My view on Aaron's suicide is much the same as that of the nurse Jacintha Saldanha last month [1].

In both cases, these people were subjected to incredible stress and anguish by external forces, but crucially, the reasonable person could not have predicted their response to these pressures would have been to take their own lives.

Aaron wasn't on suicide watch. Nobody foresaw this.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacintha_Saldanha

Re: 1/13 noon at MIT: Protest wrongful prosecution of Aaron Swartz

#42

Post by jahewson »

robomartin wrote: post #39

I've been taking all of this in trying to both formulate a reasonably valid mental framework to understand and, yes, be able to personally judge or form an opinion about this entire story. Not an easy task when you don't have direct knowledge of the facts and the people involved and, to make matters worst, morons add noise to the wire. To say that this is a catastrophe at many levels is an understatement. This should…

JSTOR don't own any content, they just make content available online as a service. Subscribers pay a fee which covers costs and pays for the licenses from the publishers. The whole operation is non-profit. It's meaningless to talk about buying JSTOR in order to own their content.

Re: 1/13 noon at MIT: Protest wrongful prosecution of Aaron Swartz

#43

Post by jacquesm »

nerdfiles wrote: post #9

I don't understand. I've downloaded articles from JSTOR, Project Muse, books on top of books, and am publicly re-hosting them through my own Dropbox, which I publicly link to on my own Website. Maybe I'm missing something here. Was he made an example? Is this the fundamental nature of the protest and the outrage, that we perceive that he was made an example of, that we are aware, and that it is unfair, in some essent…

He was made an example of because he didn't think small.

Aaron actually had the chops to pull these things off and make them stick.

Witness the PACER affair for example, if this wasn't a direct retaliation you have to wonder if there wasn't a link between that and this.

In the aggregate your dropbox and everybody else's probably contain at least as many articles as Aaron downloaded, but JSTOR isn't scared of that because it isn't centralized for easy access. That's when their little gravy train becomes endangered. Don't be misled by them being a 'non profit', there is plenty of money made around non-profits.

Re: 1/13 noon at MIT: Protest wrongful prosecution of Aaron Swartz

#44

Post by milkshakes »

droithomme wrote: post #36
i_cannot_hack wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> affiliation with MIT right now, even as a student, looks to me like affiliation with the Nazi youth Take a break. Hyperbole and strange exaggerations won't solve anything.

There is no hyperbole here. People who voluntarily affiliated with the Nazis suffered a permanent black mark on their reputations, even when they were not aware of what was going on at the time. Those who, after the extent of their evil actions were known, continued to choose to be affiliated with them, were considered exceptionally vile. Those retaining voluntary affiliation with MIT after these events are vile. I c…

> There is no hyperbole here.

> I choose, as a matter of personal morality, going forward to have nothing but disgust towards them and will not cooperate or affiliate with them anymore than I would with Neo-Nazi Skinheads.

Re: 1/13 noon at MIT: Protest wrongful prosecution of Aaron Swartz

#45

Post by alan_cx »

Just for Aaron? Oh man, what about every one else? US law is insane, hurting too many people to list. Mostly, Americans, but also world citizens who don't even get to vote in the US. You need to deal with law its self, not this one single individual. Not just the law, but I suspect your entire value system.

I had sympathy yesterday, but this is turning in to hero martyr worship. Its getting ridiculous. Step back and think. Form a proper long term strategy. Think about Kim Dotcom, Bradley, the British bloke you chaps tried to get, copyright stuff, patent stuff, hell, think about damn drone strikes which I assume will begin to happen in the US eventually. Look at the lot of it in this blokes name, not just one tiny insignificant part of it. Most of all think about the relationship between government and ...... YOU. Its supposed to be YOUR government.

I get the grief, but if all you can think of is this one single case, then expect the world to be a better place you are deluding your selves. Those Wall Street protests amounted to nothing what so ever, which means you have to do much better than them. Think about it.

As say this because I want American people, the intelligent, considered, sensitive people I read here to win their country back.

When it costs $1.5m to prove your innocence you no longer have any right to the word "democracy", less right to point fingers at other countries.

Come on America, be the people the rest of us hope you really are.

Re: 1/13 noon at MIT: Protest wrongful prosecution of Aaron Swartz

#46

Post by danso »

alan_cx wrote: post #45

Just for Aaron? Oh man, what about every one else? US law is insane, hurting too many people to list. Mostly, Americans, but also world citizens who don't even get to vote in the US. You need to deal with law its self, not this one single individual. Not just the law, but I suspect your entire value system. I had sympathy yesterday, but this is turning in to hero martyr worship. Its getting ridiculous. Step back and…

The Wall Street Protests failed, because among other things, they had too many vague, overarching goals with no end plan. And so now with Swartz's death, people have a human face to put on the failures of our justice system...and you want to berate them for not being strategic enough?

Re: 1/13 noon at MIT: Protest wrongful prosecution of Aaron Swartz

#47

Post by jnovek »

alan_cx wrote: post #45

Just for Aaron? Oh man, what about every one else? US law is insane, hurting too many people to list. Mostly, Americans, but also world citizens who don't even get to vote in the US. You need to deal with law its self, not this one single individual. Not just the law, but I suspect your entire value system. I had sympathy yesterday, but this is turning in to hero martyr worship. Its getting ridiculous. Step back and…

"I had sympathy yesterday, but this is turning in to hero martyr worship."

Isn't that how causes start? I feel like I can think of far more effective, mainstream causes that centered around the cult of a person (or a small group of people) than around agreement on an idea.

Like most of HN, I didn't know Aaron personally, but when I express outrage over these kinds of things I can now say, "Like Aaron Swatrz."

Re: 1/13 noon at MIT: Protest wrongful prosecution of Aaron Swartz

#48

Post by danso »

droithomme wrote: post #36
i_cannot_hack wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> affiliation with MIT right now, even as a student, looks to me like affiliation with the Nazi youth Take a break. Hyperbole and strange exaggerations won't solve anything.

There is no hyperbole here. People who voluntarily affiliated with the Nazis suffered a permanent black mark on their reputations, even when they were not aware of what was going on at the time. Those who, after the extent of their evil actions were known, continued to choose to be affiliated with them, were considered exceptionally vile. Those retaining voluntary affiliation with MIT after these events are vile. I c…

The MIT bureaucrats who let this terrible machinery get out of hand will have to do some soul searching and stand public scrutiny, but until it can be shown that their raisin d'être is to exterminate people, I think we should refrain from comparing them to the Nazis.

Re: 1/13 noon at MIT: Protest wrongful prosecution of Aaron Swartz

#49

Post by halviti »

alan_cx wrote: post #45

Just for Aaron? Oh man, what about every one else? US law is insane, hurting too many people to list. Mostly, Americans, but also world citizens who don't even get to vote in the US. You need to deal with law its self, not this one single individual. Not just the law, but I suspect your entire value system. I had sympathy yesterday, but this is turning in to hero martyr worship. Its getting ridiculous. Step back and…

Somehow I don't think staging a rally for bradely manning, holocaust victims, abused animals, and everyone who has ever been disenfranchised is the answer.

I get your sentiment, but if you start trying to lump too many issues together, your message gets muddled, people get confused or won't be interested.

Using any case to try to enact change is a good thing, and perhaps it will work to help people that would be hurt in similar ways in the future.

Re: 1/13 noon at MIT: Protest wrongful prosecution of Aaron Swartz

#50

Post by Vivtek »

alan_cx wrote: post #45

Just for Aaron? Oh man, what about every one else? US law is insane, hurting too many people to list. Mostly, Americans, but also world citizens who don't even get to vote in the US. You need to deal with law its self, not this one single individual. Not just the law, but I suspect your entire value system. I had sympathy yesterday, but this is turning in to hero martyr worship. Its getting ridiculous. Step back and…

Every cause needs a symbol. It's facile to then scoff at those using the symbol to say that they're ignoring everything else.

One step at a time.

Also, in reference to your final point, and it's well taken: some of us try to be.

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