Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office • Hacker News Board

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#41

Post by overgard » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 9:47 PM UTC

To the people suggesting pinning the blame on a person is ignoring the systemic issues, let me point out this: you can do both. We can both recognize that the system is broken while still recognizing that we need to make it plainly obvious how disappointed we are in the people running it.

Making a petition isn't a lynch mob. These people are public servants, and ostensibly serve at the pleasure of the public. So when tragedies like this happen we need to make it extremely clear how displeased we are.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#42

Post by wissler » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 9:47 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #10

Some more context about the prosecutor: She was named "Bostonian of the Year" for her successful cases against mob bosses and drug companies: http://www.mainjustice.com/2012/01/03/massachusetts-u-s-atto... Out of the 94 U.S. DA offices, her office alone collected ~67% of the total criminal and civil fines in 2012, mostly owing to the successful prosecution of drug companies. Her success led to speculation that she wo…

If you go to court and say "I didn't mean to break the law", he says "too bad." But evidently, you think she should get leniency from us for obliviously (you allege) ruining someone's life.

Screw that.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#43

Post by wissler » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 9:50 PM UTC

overgard wrote: post #41

To the people suggesting pinning the blame on a person is ignoring the systemic issues, let me point out this: you can do both. We can both recognize that the system is broken while still recognizing that we need to make it plainly obvious how disappointed we are in the people running it. Making a petition isn't a lynch mob. These people are public servants, and ostensibly serve at the pleasure of the public. So when…

Indeed. Yes, the system is what it is, but prosecutors have huge discretion over who they attack. "The system" is just a machine, like a gun, and she picked that gun up, aimed it at Aaron, and pulled the trigger.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#44

Post by jordanb » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 9:55 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #35

danso wrote: post #10

Some more context about the prosecutor: She was named "Bostonian of the Year" for her successful cases against mob bosses and drug companies: http://www.mainjustice.com/2012/01/03/massachusetts-u-s-atto... Out of the 94 U.S. DA offices, her office alone collected ~67% of the total criminal and civil fines in 2012, mostly owing to the successful prosecution of drug companies. Her success led to speculation that she wo…

My Grandfather, who was the US Attorney for west Memphis, once explained that prosecuting the law was messy. It was messy because there was rarely a case which hinged on exactly one part of the law or that had circumstances that nicely isolated the principle at stake. He was talking about pornography, and the difficulty of a general consensus that pornography was "bad" and should be outlawed, with the challenge of de…

Ending her career would set a very clear precedent that other prosecutors would have no difficulty understanding. N'est pas?

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#45

Post by vertr » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 9:56 PM UTC

I feel like this petition could have been written so much more persuasively. Regardless, I signed.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#46

Post by philwelch » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 9:57 PM UTC

Where's the petition to require free publication and distribution of federally funded academic research? That was the point of that particular exercise in civil disobedience in the first place. What a disappointment--it's like firing a cop for putting Martin Luther King in jail without ever addressing racism.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#47

Post by mangler » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 10:02 PM UTC

Of course, I assume nobody wants Ms. Ortiz to spin into deep guilt-driven depression for doing what she believed was right. This kind of emotional blackmail is probably not helping anyone or anything, at least not this soon after the events when emotions are still looming high and, more importantly, nobody actually understands the exact circumstances of a person's... well... personal predicament that lead to certain actions....

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#48

Post by OldSchool » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 10:06 PM UTC

bcoates wrote: post #27

objclxt wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree. It's understandable that after a tragic, upsetting event like this people look for someone to blame. If you are looking for someone to blame, blame the law. Prosecutors take cases they think they can win. No prosecutor wants to lose a case. The decision to take a case is made based on the law and precedent. Getting a DA fired solves nothing. What happens once you have achieved it? What have yo…

Unfortunately this conflicts with the reality of Federal law in the US, where prosecutorial discretion is essentially the beginning and end of the criminal law system. At any given time, any person and any company could be easily convicted of enough serious crimes to put them in prison for life or out of business. Prosecutors don't pick cases; they pick defendants, based on what are hopefully well-intended criteria.…

Only a person of science or other black/white thinker would assume that law and procedure was an "essentially mechanical process." I once imagined it that way too. The very first thing a law student is taught is that everything is a grey area: laws are left vague deliberately in order to be interpreted by judges; evidence and procedure are negotiable; everything is subjective. The legal framework is only that, a framework. The legal machine is far, far from deterministic. It is designed from the top down to be discretionary.

Otherwise you'd more often run into situations where you couldn't prosecute someone because a statute didn't spell out their exact actions even though in spirit they had violated it.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#49

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 10:07 PM UTC

overgard wrote: post #41

To the people suggesting pinning the blame on a person is ignoring the systemic issues, let me point out this: you can do both. We can both recognize that the system is broken while still recognizing that we need to make it plainly obvious how disappointed we are in the people running it. Making a petition isn't a lynch mob. These people are public servants, and ostensibly serve at the pleasure of the public. So when…

[deleted]

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#50

Post by wpietri » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 10:12 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #38

lmkg wrote: post #26

While Cameron Ortiz' actions towards Aaron Swartz were unjust, I think that she is receiving an unduly large share of the ire, and as a result, several other agents and factors in this scenario are receiving an unduly small share. While I don't particularly want to defend her, I believe that a) justice is never served well by a lynch mob b) other actors are more deserving of blame , and by focusing on Ortiz we give t…

The truth is that every prosecutor faces too many possible cases to actually pursue, and so has to choose which ones to focus on. A prosecutor may try to be neutral, but the basic act of triage forces you to show your biases. In this case Aaron stuck a laptop in an unlocked closet, used curl to download lots of links, and did absolutely nothing to hide his tracks because he did not think he was doing anything wrong.…

Yes, this.

I'm really angry that bankers get to walk away from billion-dollar crimes against clients and homewoners while a prosecutor goes after easy wins on victimless crimes like this.