Prosecutor as bully • Hacker News Board

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#21

Post by PrudenceYuris » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 6:27 PM UTC

Then do something about it.

This prosecutor is quite the collector and displayer of awards: http://www.necc.mass.edu/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Carmen-O...

She is a PR asset to this university: http://www.pr.com/press-release/366324

Evidently some people want her to run for higher office: http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_politics/2013/01/...

Governor Ortiz? Make sure it isn't: http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/12/07/patrick-reported...

And if you are a big biotech company, you can readily negotiate a deal to avoid prosecution: http://www.justice.gov/opa/documents/gsk/plea-ex-k.pdf

Oh, and piling on in the JSTOR case, while pleading down to two years for an actual money-stealing ATM skimmer with real victims: http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/11/08/romanian-man-who...

Make sure this black spot eclipses them all. Contact the organizations she is a member of and/or a recipient of some award. Make sure the leadership of that organization knows that she lacks a sense of proportion and that this tendency to overreach cost a good man his life.

Make this an exercise in how to correct these injustices, and make her an example to other prosecutors.

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#22

Post by brianobush » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 6:33 PM UTC

miles wrote: post #3

if what the government alleged was true — and I say “if” because I am not revealing what Aaron said to me then — then what he did was wrong. And if not legally wrong, then at least morally wrong. Morally wrong to download taxpayer-funded research? I'm sorry Larry, you lost me. More on the academic publishing "industry": http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/22/academic-pu...

Taxpayers fund my research, so can they just break in and steal "information" (code, plots, draft of papers, etc)? They paid for it, right? The academic publishing industry is not one of my favorites, but they do provide a service to the communities they represent. Circumventing them will eventually destroy the community unless another "open" organization is willing to step in. Many fields (mine included) are so arcane that very few would be interested in making an open publishing venue with the editorial quality we have now.

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#23

Post by waterlesscloud » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 6:36 PM UTC

brianobush wrote: post #22

miles wrote: post #3

if what the government alleged was true — and I say “if” because I am not revealing what Aaron said to me then — then what he did was wrong. And if not legally wrong, then at least morally wrong. Morally wrong to download taxpayer-funded research? I'm sorry Larry, you lost me. More on the academic publishing "industry": http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/22/academic-pu...

Taxpayers fund my research, so can they just break in and steal "information" (code, plots, draft of papers, etc)? They paid for it, right? The academic publishing industry is not one of my favorites, but they do provide a service to the communities they represent. Circumventing them will eventually destroy the community unless another "open" organization is willing to step in. Many fields (mine included) are so arca…

The question here would be why should the public have to break in in the first place? Why isn't it public info from the start?

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#24

Post by rprasad » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 6:36 PM UTC

miles wrote: post #3

if what the government alleged was true — and I say “if” because I am not revealing what Aaron said to me then — then what he did was wrong. And if not legally wrong, then at least morally wrong. Morally wrong to download taxpayer-funded research? I'm sorry Larry, you lost me. More on the academic publishing "industry": http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/22/academic-pu...

The problem is not that Aaron accessed the information; it is that he abused the public resources used to maintain the store of information, and further that he did so in such an egregious matter. He would not have been prosecuted if he had just downloaded a dozen articles, but he downloaded 4 million.

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#25

Post by rprasad » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 6:38 PM UTC

jmvoodoo wrote: post #20

This type of behavior makes me wonder what the incentive structure is (both financially and socially) for these prosecutors? IMO that's what needs to change if we are going to have any sort of real justice in the future. Going after individuals might make us feel better for a little while, but it won't save the next Aaron Schwartz from the same fate.

Prosecutors are self-selected to be zealous defenders of the rule of law as it is written. (Quite frequently, people who believe in the rule of law as it is intended choose to go into defense work.)

Thus, they need no financial or social incentives; the work itself is their incenctive, much in the same way that tackling a hard programming program is incentive in itself for a talanted programmer.

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#26

Post by rprasad » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 6:41 PM UTC

PrudenceYuris wrote: post #21

Then do something about it. This prosecutor is quite the collector and displayer of awards: http://www.necc.mass.edu/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Carmen-O... She is a PR asset to this university: http://www.pr.com/press-release/366324 Evidently some people want her to run for higher office: http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_politics/2013/01/... Governor Ortiz? Make sure it isn't: http://www.bostonglobe.com/met…

This is quite possibly the worst idea ever.

Let's not just go after one person, let's go after everyone she ever knows, even if they have no involvement in this particular incident? Are you going to suggest we tar, feather, and lynch them too?

Make this an exercise in how to correct these injustices, and make her an example to other prosecutors.

You do this by airing ads against her if she ever runs for office or seeks higher appointment. You do not attack other people associated with her; that crosses the line.

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#27

Post by danso » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 6:43 PM UTC

> Early on, and to its great credit, JSTOR figured “appropriate” out: They declined to pursue their own action against Aaron, and they asked the government to drop its. MIT, to its great shame, was not as clear, and so the prosecutor had the excuse he needed to continue his war against the “criminal” who we who loved him knew as Aaron.

Can someone expound on MIT's role or ability to impact the prosecutor's case against Aaron? Did they aggressively push for some kind of trial? Did they just wash their hands of it? What is the OP referring to?

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#28

Post by guan » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 6:45 PM UTC

jmvoodoo wrote: post #20

This type of behavior makes me wonder what the incentive structure is (both financially and socially) for these prosecutors? IMO that's what needs to change if we are going to have any sort of real justice in the future. Going after individuals might make us feel better for a little while, but it won't save the next Aaron Schwartz from the same fate.

Federal prosecutors are appointed politically and are political figures. This can sometimes be a good thing because they can be more accountable than a faceless bureaucrat—maybe this prosecutor won’t win her next election because of this—and because they might be more likely to reflect society’s values. For example a prosecutor can decide to be more lenient in some nonviolent drug cases: the police has to investigate and the judge has to convict, but a prosecutor has the discretion to just drop the case. Of course in Aaron’s case we see the dark side of the political nature of US attorneys.

Fans of The West Wing may remember this quote from Robert Jackson:

“The prosecutor has more control over life, liberty, and reputation than any other person in America. His discretion is tremendous. He can have citizens investigated and, if he is that kind of person, he can have this done to the tune of public statements and veiled or unveiled intimations. Or the prosecutor may choose a more subtle course and simply have a citizen’s friends interviewed. … While the prosecutor at his best is one of the most beneficent forces in our society, when he acts from malice or other base motives, he is one of the worst.

“Your positions are of such independence and importance that while you are being diligent, strict, and vigorous in law enforcement you can also afford to be just. Although the government technically loses its case, it has really won if justice has been done.”

http://www.roberthjackson.org/the-man/speeches-articles/spee...

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#29

Post by alan_cx » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 6:45 PM UTC

I cant articulate it properly or fully, but it feels like there is an establishment jealousy or resentment of dot com type people. Kids making too much money and having too much power out side of the "norm" course of business.

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#30

Post by brianobush » Sat, Jan 12, 2013, 6:45 PM UTC

waterlesscloud wrote: post #23

brianobush wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxpayers fund my research, so can they just break in and steal "information" (code, plots, draft of papers, etc)? They paid for it, right? The academic publishing industry is not one of my favorites, but they do provide a service to the communities they represent. Circumventing them will eventually destroy the community unless another "open" organization is willing to step in. Many fields (mine included) are so arca…

The question here would be why should the public have to break in in the first place? Why isn't it public info from the start?

Agreed. Many times publicly funded projects are not entirely open, case in point: DoD funded work.