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Never Lie About Who You Really Are

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Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#221

Post by icebraining »

gizzlon wrote: post #103
chernevik wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone finds for themselves what witness they must bear. If the OP feels an obligation to help transform social views of homosexuality, well that's their duty as they see it. Likewise those evangelicals who feel the need to bear witness to what Jesus has done for them. If they share a cab it could well be an exhausting ride for everybody but this is beside the point of their obligations as they seem them. We must a…

We must all do the right as we see it. [..] Doing what _you_ think wrong is wrong. Hmm.. this seems like a form of relativism. Are you implying the inverse as well: Doing what _you_ think right is right? How do you defend that if "right" for me happens to be walking around nude in public, or more extreme, shooting people that I disagree with?

How do you defend that if "right" for me happens to be walking around nude in public, or more extreme, shooting people that I disagree with?

The fact that is right for you to do something doesn't mean it's not right for me and others to stop you from doing it. Since they're relative, there's no inconsistency.

Incidentally, I find it amusing how you just implicitly judged whole societies (where walking around nude in public is/was the standard) as being morally in the wrong. I've always found the moral absolutism argument to have a disagreeable taste of superiority.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#222

Post by rmc »

g8oz wrote: post #171
king_jester wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really about the odds though, it's more about creating norms and normative behavior. For folks that deviation from "normal", they tend to face microaggressions from others, and possibly outright discrimination and physical violence.

Personally instead of tripping over myself trying not to make every permutation of human diversity feel uncomfortable, I think I'll let them just deal with their hurt feelings i.e the consequences of "microaggressions". Its character building. As for outright discrimination and violence we have laws for that.

I think I'll let them just deal with their hurt feelings i.e the consequences of "microaggressions". Its character building.

Except that it's not character building. It's not helpful and it's not good for people. It's harmful and doesn't help people. The original article refers to it taking a lot of courage and work to consistently out themselves. What makes you think consistently putting those barriers up where people need to come out is helpful? Punching someone's arm every hour will not make them stronger, and consistently presuming gay people don't exist won't help gay people.

Do you still want to do it, even if it turns out you're actually hurting people?

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#223

Post by erichocean »

Jabbles wrote: post #18

Just because you shouldn't have to lie about it, doesn't make it good advice to never lie about it. There are, sadly, many places in the US (and many in the rest of the world) where expressing your true self will cause you (physical/emotional) harm. If you live in such a place, be careful.

Just because you shouldn't have to lie about it, doesn't make it good advice to never lie about it.

^^ This.

I know many people in flyover country who are atheists, but who go to church every Sunday simply to avoid having them and their children not be ostracized from the majority of social activity.

All decisions should, in part, be made in reference to your own happiness. If "coming out" as an atheist (or homosexual, or...) is going to make your life substantially worth with no real upside for you, "lying" about yourself is a reasonable, and possible necessary, alternative.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#224

Post by [deleted] »

Jabbles wrote: post #18

Just because you shouldn't have to lie about it, doesn't make it good advice to never lie about it. There are, sadly, many places in the US (and many in the rest of the world) where expressing your true self will cause you (physical/emotional) harm. If you live in such a place, be careful.

[deleted]

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#225

Post by fallous »

lilsunnybee wrote: post #215
fallous wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would my "sexuality" be a topic for anyone other than those close to me? If my wife and I like to dress up as robotic ninjas in order to get satisfaction, well then that's between my wife and I despite how "out of mainstream" it is and is no business of anyone else. I tire of the "acceptance" desire of so many people in so many areas of their lives. Tolerance != acceptance, it merely means that someone can tolera…

Are you seriously trying to compare same-sex relationships to having sexual fetishes? Your fetishes will never come up in any sort of everyday conversation, and no one has ever been discriminated against for their sexual kinks. Asking someone to be private about who they're partners with is very discriminatory. It's not required of opposite-sex couples. And very simple freedoms you might take for granted, like holdin…

Actually, "fetishes" would most assuredly come up in the same kinds of meaningless conversations in everyday life. "Oh, it's your anniversary? So you're going to go out for a nice romantic meal?" The assumption being that's what "normal" people do for such occasions. I do not feel compelled to correct their mistaken assumption simply because it's none of their damned business unless I decide they are important in my life.

You misunderstand the idea of "it's no one else's business" with "you must be silent!" Holding your partner's hand in public is already publicly declaring the very thing that would alter the direction of a conversation regarding the sex of your significant other, which has no bearing on the original post or my response. This is about feeling the need to actively correct the incorrect assumptions of people who have no meaningful value to you and your partner's life.

As for suggesting DADT, well when I suggest such a thing feel free to argue against it.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#226

Post by pfedor »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #45
noja wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question was why do gay people need to "come out", why does that make sense in 2013?

Really? Look at a map of US states, wait, here's one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Samesex_marriage_in_USA.sv... Gay marriage is legal in only a few states. At the federal level it is explicitly excluded from the "full faith and credit" clause of the constitution. And in most states it is expressly illegal. More so, in some states homosexual acts are technically illegal and in theory punishable by jail time. The…

More so, in some states homosexual acts are technically illegal and in theory punishable by jail time.

No longer true: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#227

Post by wnight »

chernevik wrote: post #129
gizzlon wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We must all do the right as we see it. [..] Doing what _you_ think wrong is wrong. Hmm.. this seems like a form of relativism. Are you implying the inverse as well: Doing what _you_ think right is right? How do you defend that if "right" for me happens to be walking around nude in public, or more extreme, shooting people that I disagree with?

It does seem so, doesn't it? But I couple it with a duty to always seek a better understanding of the right, and to a humility that appreciates you might be wrong. Moral principles are absolute and unchanging. But their _application_ is always subject to a context, and that context is often full of many different considerations of various weights. You may be of some Nudist religion but appreciate that your other duti…

What if the potential shooter was a parent on their way to rescue a child from a kidnapper? What if the shooter was a police officer and had merely lost their uniform in a comic mishap while chasing a vicious killer?

If you try to stop someone who is looking to shoot someone they disagree with (regardless of their reasoning), presumably by calling in the police or other agents employing lethal force, you're ultimately just shooting people you disagree with by proxy.

If you believed words were a better solution than violence you'd need to talk, and accept the results of that discussion, instead of drawing lines and deciding to perpetrate your own violence.

Pacifists can't call the police or they're merely cowards.

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