Never Lie About Who You Really Are • Hacker News Board

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#201

Post by ianstormtaylor » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 5:10 AM UTC

crikli wrote: post #146

The inference of this paragraph bugs me: "Last week, the pest control guy came to the door. "Are you Mr. Smith?" he says. "No, I'm Mr. Pallotta, Mr. Smith's partner," I reply. "Partner?" he asks. I'm being questioned in my own home. "Yes, partner," I answer. "We're a gay couple." "Oh," he says, trying to process this and maintain his composure." The writer assumes that because the pest control guy doesn't immediately…

"There's a good chance these perceived slights are in Mr. Pallotta's head ..."

What? I understand the inference problem, and it's interesting to explain that as a possible solution, but do you honestly think that there's a "good chance" that the author—who experienced the situation first-hand; who had 3x more information [1] about the situation than you—was making it all up?

There's a much better chance that the author just didn't describe the situation with enough detail.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonverbal_communication

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#202

Post by silentmars » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 5:13 AM UTC

Big fan of this article. The world asks us to sell out our integrity for such a pittance on almost a daily basis. "Convenience," "convention," "getting along." These are the meager rewards for our silent assent. It's great motivation to read someone standing up and saying "stop it. Your integrity is worth more." Need the reminder sometimes.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#203

Post by drivebyacct2 » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 7:42 AM UTC

g8oz wrote: post #171

king_jester wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really about the odds though, it's more about creating norms and normative behavior. For folks that deviation from "normal", they tend to face microaggressions from others, and possibly outright discrimination and physical violence.

Personally instead of tripping over myself trying not to make every permutation of human diversity feel uncomfortable, I think I'll let them just deal with their hurt feelings i.e the consequences of "microaggressions". Its character building. As for outright discrimination and violence we have laws for that.

Nice of you to take the high road and help make sure us gays keep pulling our punches to toughen us up. What the what?

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#204

Post by saraid216 » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 7:44 AM UTC

RobotCaleb wrote: post #194

nollidge wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I agree! I bet the pest control didn't actually say those exact words, either! You know, I wonder if there actually was a pest control guy at all--I bet it was really a plumber ! Man, I just can't trust this author at all anymore. Thanks for pointing this out. Thanks also for explaining the ambiguity of the English language to all of us, as well as some of the really interesting machinations people sometimes go…

Why do I feel like your comment is dripping in sarcasm?

Because it is?

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#205

Post by drivebyacct2 » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 7:44 AM UTC

So many people missing the point of the gay analogy in this thread and once again, at the mere hint of the concept of privilege, people race to get defensive and shut their ears before even understanding the issue at play; further showing that people continue to have knee-jerk reactions to the phrase "privilege" just as some think that "feminism" = "hates men" instead of "wants gender equality".

To explain further, there's two issues:

1. That my sexuality is a topic that I constantly have to correct people on. It hurts because of internalized homophobia from two decades of growing up in the Midwest. It hurts because it's a constant reminder that I'm a minority and that people make incorrect assumptions about me. It hurts because it's annoying. I had a friend that would introduce me as "DriveBy, my gay friend". That's the sort of feeling I get when I have to stop and say "No, I'm gay". Hell, I even have some awkward feeling when it's someone I suspect is homophobic because I don't want to make them uneasy.

2. When I correct people on my sexuality, I've challenged their assumptions. I've changed their perspective and reminded them that not everyone is straight, even the people that "oh my god, I never would have guessed". This isn't about "shoving sexuality in peoples' faces". It's not about evangelizing LGBT issues every day just to force it.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#206

Post by aphyr » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 7:45 AM UTC

crikli wrote: post #146

The inference of this paragraph bugs me: "Last week, the pest control guy came to the door. "Are you Mr. Smith?" he says. "No, I'm Mr. Pallotta, Mr. Smith's partner," I reply. "Partner?" he asks. I'm being questioned in my own home. "Yes, partner," I answer. "We're a gay couple." "Oh," he says, trying to process this and maintain his composure." The writer assumes that because the pest control guy doesn't immediately…

by the open admission of sexuality

I agree with you; "partner" has an unusual feel in conversation, and I'm never sure what to make of it. I think for some folks this is a sore spot--that the phrase "wife", spoken by a man, is also an open admission of sexuality--so why can't we have a word like that, dammit? We're looking for a language which lets us express an integral part of our lives in a way which is normal to other people.

In "Covering", Kenji Yoshino talks about the strange dance that LGBT people go through. You continually gauge the situation--sometimes overtly, sometimes subconsciously. "Is it worth it?" "Can I give my boyfriend a hug at this service station?" "Should we just break down and get separate beds at the hotel? It'll be easier." "Have we told his Aunt yet, or are am I just a friend in town for Thanksgiving?"

In San Francisco, at least for me, this tension is practically absent--but in rural Minnesota and Wisconsin, it was a very real part of my life. Things are changing quick, though. :)

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#207

Post by drivebyacct2 » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 7:48 AM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #95

elemenohpee wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe he welcomes the small talk but finds the process of correcting false assumptions laborious? I get what you're saying and I don't think you're trying to be homophobic, but realize that that attitude often comes off the same as "I don't mind people being gay, I just don't want to see it or have to hear about it". It's a subtle form of oppression, where gay people are made to feel that they are not free to engage…

I didn't say anything approaching what you claim the attitude is. My point was that small talk, particular cabby small talk, almost always involves false assumptions, and this has nothing to do with being ignorant. Otherwise, they have exactly the problem you mention in the last sentence. They see people from all walks of life. If they didn't make some set of assumptions (be it about sexuality, gender, typical behavi…

The author isn't making a point about ignorance. Everyone wants to act like he's blaming the cabby and he's not. As someone who is constantly in this situation, it's tiring. It's a reminder of how many people treat me as a gay man first rather than a software developer.

It's the same problem with the people that say "Oh, women at conferences should be flattered by the attention". They want to be seen as equal. I want to be seen as equal. Having to stop and explain, "No, I don't have a wife" is a reminder of the fact that most of our society still walks around assuming every stranger is straight.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#208

Post by drivebyacct2 » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 7:50 AM UTC

fallous wrote: post #64

elemenohpee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to be presumptuous, but are you straight? Not feeling compelled to tell people about your sexuality is a luxury afforded to people who fit into the norm. It's what LGBT activists would call "privilege", and it's something that we as straight/white/male/other dominant group need to be aware of if we don't wish to alienate minority groups.

Why would my "sexuality" be a topic for anyone other than those close to me? If my wife and I like to dress up as robotic ninjas in order to get satisfaction, well then that's between my wife and I despite how "out of mainstream" it is and is no business of anyone else. I tire of the "acceptance" desire of so many people in so many areas of their lives. Tolerance != acceptance, it merely means that someone can tolera…

Because the cab driver isn't going to say "Oh, you have kids? I bet you hate dressing up as robotic ninjas" forcing you to have to correct them and explain that, no, you don't fit his presumptions. It's not the cab drivers fault necessarily, people are socialized to expect that other people are straight, often because many people hide it.

Hence the circle. By pointing out that I'm gay, when NO ONE (literally, I mean no one, most people don't believe me) expects it, I break that assumption and cause that person to second guess that assumption in the future.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#209

Post by saraid216 » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 7:54 AM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #76

elemenohpee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to be presumptuous, but are you straight? Not feeling compelled to tell people about your sexuality is a luxury afforded to people who fit into the norm. It's what LGBT activists would call "privilege", and it's something that we as straight/white/male/other dominant group need to be aware of if we don't wish to alienate minority groups.

I understand your point, but it seems a bit laborious in this case. If a cab driver asks me how my day was, and i'm exhausted, I say "good" and stop talking. This is true whether you are gay, straight, or whatever. In the example in the article, if he was too exhausted to tell "the truth" (as he calls it) and have a "transformative conversation", he should have just said "i'd rather not talk about it". This does not…

It's not about education; it's about risk and the willingness to face it.

By responding to, "How's your wife?" with "My husband's fine," he's admitting homosexuality to a potential homophobe. You could lie and say, "She's fine," and that'd be that. You could be neutral and say, "Fine," but that just postpones it. And for some people, they're aware that's a deliberate skirting of the issue and is basically a lie by omission. That atrophies the very muscle the author wanted to discuss. You might find it acceptable, but it's clear that the author does not.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#210

Post by rmc » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 9:56 AM UTC

king_jester wrote: post #137

philwelch wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not wrong, just playing the odds. ~95% of people are sufficiently heterosexual.

It's not really about the odds though, it's more about creating norms and normative behavior. For folks that deviation from "normal", they tend to face microaggressions from others, and possibly outright discrimination and physical violence.

Exactly. When I said "That's wrong", I didn't mean "That's statistically incorrect", I meant "That's not the most moral thing".

After all, if you were in a primary school full of 10 year olds, it's statistically accurate to refer to them as "virgins". But you shouldn't do that.