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Pain of the New: The Hobbit at 48 fps

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Re: Pain of the New: The Hobbit at 48 fps

#91
post #12

A slight bit off topic from the article here but was the 3D version the only one shown in 48fps? I saw the 3D version a fews days ago and was actually disappointed that I wasn't able to experience the 48fps experience. To me the 3D effect seemed to cause a lot of jitter and poor fps so I was a bit ticked the whole time. But now having read this article I'm even more ticked off that I didn't even realize I was watchin…

There's three versions: 24FPS 2D, 24FPS 3D, and 48FPS 3D. You most likely saw the 24FPS 3D version, unless it was specifically advertised as "HFR". The main aim of HFR is to make the 3D work better and not give the usual headaches, etc. people get when watching 3D. I haven't actually seen the 24FPS version yet, but I imagine there's a possibility the 24FPS version has a much faster shutter speed than would typically…

It was labeled as HFR and cost me a few extra bucks at that. Thinking back more I do remember a few scenes where I felt like things were smoother. Perhaps my expectations were too high or other people are simply way more sensitive to the effect?

I'd like to see it at 4K, 48fps, and without 3D.

Re: Pain of the New: The Hobbit at 48 fps

#92
post #36

>Knoll asked me, "You probably only noticed the odd lighting in the interior scenes, not in the outdoors scenes, right?" And once he asked it this way, I realize he was right. The scenes in the HFR version that seemed odd were all inside. The landscape scenes were stunning in a good way. "That's because they didn't have to light the outside; the real lighting is all that was needed, so nothing seemed amiss." I would…

Here's a great piece on that lens[1]. Also, it's on view at LACMA through June 30[2].

[1] http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/sk/ac/len/page1.htm

[2] http://www.lacma.org/art/exhibition/stanley-kubrick

Re: Pain of the New: The Hobbit at 48 fps

#93

A slight bit off topic from the article here but was the 3D version the only one shown in 48fps? I saw the 3D version a fews days ago and was actually disappointed that I wasn't able to experience the 48fps experience. To me the 3D effect seemed to cause a lot of jitter and poor fps so I was a bit ticked the whole time. But now having read this article I'm even more ticked off that I didn't even realize I was watchin…

Are you sure you watched the HFR version? Not all 3D showings had HFR. I think you may have only seen the regular version. HFR was really noticeable (for me, at least).

See me other comment. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5034625

Re: Pain of the New: The Hobbit at 48 fps

#94
post #15

I hear writers moan and wring their hands about the high-framerate version of The Hobbit, how it doesn't look "cinematic" or what have you — but anecdotally, nobody I know had the kind of complaints you hear from film insiders. Nobody I know complains about it looking like a PBS show; nobody feels like they can see the actors' makeup. Those who saw both versions unanimously liked the HFR version better (a common reas…

My wife and I saw the HFR version and we were both put off by it. We're not exactly movie snobs or hard to please either...we've been to a theatre like 5 times since we had our first child 10 years ago. I was completely unimpressed. It was painfully obvious that we were on a set instead of in some fantasy world. If this really is the future, then I hope that Knoll is correct that it will be solved by improved sets, p…

It must be solved by improved set, props, lighting, makeup... HFR is but one aspect of ability of technology to destroy the illusion of film. Improved sensor resolution affects this, too. As time goes on and Things Get Better, it's easier to notice the flaws beneath the makeup used for coverup. That is, until techniques catch up.

Re: Pain of the New: The Hobbit at 48 fps

#95
post #16

Humans like flaws. When CDs first came out, people argued that they sounded "cold," even though they're near-perfect recreations of the music that was recorded. People like the hiss and compression of records and tapes. This is also the same reason why people like Instagram filters. Normal iPhone pics are too good. Let's fuzz em up a bit. Also, look at v1 of Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and other popular sites - they…

> Humans like flaws.

I don't think that's it. I think humans dislike change, and a lot of change (especially in technology) involves the removal of flaws. Almost every argument I've read that's critical of The Hobbit in HFR can be put in historical perspective by replacing "HFR" with "dialogue audio," "wide aspect ratio," or "color." You can find this sentiment anywhere you look.

Re: Pain of the New: The Hobbit at 48 fps

#96

"48fps is just above the threshold that the human eye/brain can detect changes" No, it's not. The actual threshold is unknown, but it's generally assumed to be around 100fps. Like the threshold for color, it's a complex question. You don't see stuttering in a movie (usually) because each frame has an exposure time that is almost the full duration of how long the frame will appear on screen. The result is that anythin…

48fps was chosen because it was a direct multiple of 24. You can cut the framerate in half and project it in all the old 24fps projectors.

Re: Pain of the New: The Hobbit at 48 fps

#97

Word. One reason however that some CDs really did sound cold and clinical in the early days was because the transfers to CD were using EQ curves that toned down bass and heightened treble frequencies for pressing vinyls. It made the vinyl records more even, but it made the CDs sound weak and harsh. My brother has been spending time in his home studio remastering some of his 80's CDs with normalization and EQ changes…

> One reason however that some CDs really did sound cold and clinical in the early days was because the transfers to CD were using EQ curves that toned down bass and heightened treble frequencies for pressing vinyls. It made the vinyl records more even, but it made the CDs sound weak and harsh.

You seem to refer to the RIAA equalization curve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

It is true that bass is reduced and treble is increased before recording a vinyl LP, but the opposite curve is then applied when the LP is played back. The overall frequency curve of the whole chain is flat (or as close to flat as technically possible).

The purpose of the whole thing was not to make "vinyl records more even". The actual reasons were:

1. Reduce noise (which is mostly located in the high frequency area, and is reduced at playback due to the complementary EQ curve)

2. Reduce the very high amplitude meandering motion of the needle that would be imposed by high-amplitude bass (thereby requiring a much wider space between neighboring grooves and reducing the total duration of the LP). Because bass is reduced while recording, the needle doesn't wander that much; at playback, bass is restored to the right level.

Moreover, the RIAA curve is extremely deep. It's + or - 20 dB at either end, and that's A Whole Lot. Any CD mastered with such a curve applied at recording (but without the opposite curve applied at playback) would sound downright awful. It's not a subtle effect, it's about the same like turning bass all the way down, and treble all the way up, on a classic EQ with two knobs. That's not "cold and clinical", that's broken.

Perhaps some clueless sound monkeys indeed made such an egregious error back then, on a few CDs, but the backlash was no doubt very strong. When LP fans talk about the "cold" sound of CDs, this is not what they refer to. They are talking about the lack of a certain kind of added harmonic distortions that give vinyl its specific sound, that some people apparently prefer over a clear signal, for some strange reason.

Source: I'm old enough to have actually built preamps for LP players (and cassette recorders). Often my stuff was as good as high-end professional electronics, at a fraction of the cost. But it often looked like something a robotic gorilla threw up after an indigestion.

> HFR may require similar "mastering" to suit the newer format better, changing filmmaking techniques that no longer apply like they did in the 24fps era.

I totally agree.

They use 48 fps, but the shooting and lighting techniques are the same like in the 24 fps era. Of course there seems to be a disconnect.

Re: Pain of the New: The Hobbit at 48 fps

#98
post #36

>Knoll asked me, "You probably only noticed the odd lighting in the interior scenes, not in the outdoors scenes, right?" And once he asked it this way, I realize he was right. The scenes in the HFR version that seemed odd were all inside. The landscape scenes were stunning in a good way. "That's because they didn't have to light the outside; the real lighting is all that was needed, so nothing seemed amiss." I would…

This reminds me of the Dogme 95 movement from Danish directors[1]. It's a set of 10 filmmaking rules among which is:

> The film must be in colour. Special lighting is not acceptable (if there is too little light for exposure the scene must be cut or a single lamp be attached to the camera).

[1] : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogme_95

Re: Pain of the New: The Hobbit at 48 fps

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Starting with The New World, Malick has instituted “rules” in his filmmaking, including using only natural light, no cranes, no big rigs, and handheld cameras only [1]. You might want to checkout New World if natural lighting interests you. Malick is known as the "director's director" and has done a lot of very interesting work. He loves trying to capture "unrepeatable moments", like how he used a clip of an in-cost…

There's also the films of the Dogme 95 group (ie, Lars von Trier) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogme_95 Notable rules for them being avoiding music that doesn't exist in the environment, shooting only handheld, only the barest of lighting.

I've seen many poor Dogme95 films, but I can heartily recommend Thomas Vinterberg's Festen as both a prime example of the experiment (he was one of the co-institutors of Dogme) and a great film on its own merits.

Re: Pain of the New: The Hobbit at 48 fps

#100
post #68
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would love to see cinematographers experiment with natural lighting for shots. What are you talking about? Many films are made with natural light. Kubrick wasn't alone.

indoors.

Yes. Some Dogme95 films. Pedro Costa's Colossal Youth. Amadeus. I'm sure I'm missing many others...
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