The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power • Hacker News Board

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#121

Post by ahpeeyem » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 12:13 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #56

chii wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you explain a bit more about this? i dont understand how delegating to a board is an exploit.

Delegating in itself isn't, but it opens up a security hole as soon as corporate executives realize they can game the system by becoming board members--both in their own companies and in each other's companies. If you look at most corporate boards today, they are composed of executives of other companies, and their main function is to allow said executives to rubber-stamp each other's golden parachutes.

http://theyrule.net/

This is pretty old now (2000-ish?) but is a pretty great graphical and interactive demonstration of how interlinked the big corporations' boardrooms are.

Check out the 'popular maps' for some good examples.

Edit: It was connected to littlesis.org in 2011 ("a free database of who-knows-who at the heights of business and government")

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#122

Post by adamauckland » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 12:24 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #59

CleanedStar wrote: post #3

When Karl Marx wrote Capital in 1867, he said capitalism would never be able to get rid of credit bubbles, financial crises, high unemployment etc. He said that over time the problems would get worse and worse with greater and greater financial crises. Here we are about a century and a half later and you just have to look at the housing bubble, the bank crisis, TARP and the government bailout, unemployment in the US…

That is all well and good. But is there a real world example of an economic and social system that works that is not based on capitalism? And by works here I don't mean just GDP, maybe also life expectancy, crime, health stats, education level, general happiness if available. Basically if I get a free pass and resource to move anywhere, I where do I go find this "better" place that moved beyond Capitalism and is free…

North European countries are social democracies with incredibly high income tax (roughly 30%).

I don't think you can tax your way into getting societies like these. The world wars gutted large parts of the population and society had to change.

The NHS in the UK was set up in response to having fought a war on their own soil, something which the US has not done in a long time.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#123

Post by gadders » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 1:33 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #111

sliverstorm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will never be wealthy and I will still continue to vote for a fair tax system. A flat tax system. Because everyone should pay the same, regardless of status or income. Trouble with a flat tax system is the poor can't afford the tax rates the nation's current expenditure would require. It would work O.K. if the expenditure was much lower, but I see no way to get from here to there. Aside from that, I've come to beli…

"The less income someone has, the more taxes cut into basic living expenses (because a greater portion of that person's income is spent on basic needs)." Covered by Milton Friedman's proposal of a flat tax with a minimum standard of living deductible, e.g. 10k USD. Furthermore, those making less than that 10k would get the 'refund' as some sort of social security. Developed in his book "Capitalism and Freedom". "I'm…

Oh god. Don't give them a refund, just make the first X,000 tax free. That's better than circulating the money through the hands of a bunch of bureaucrats.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#124

Post by gadders » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 1:38 PM UTC

adamauckland wrote: post #120

wybo wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Morality has a bearing on it. Not letting die, or for that matter, enabling a minimally humane life for everyone, is as important, or more important than the dictum against (potentially unjust) taxation. I see why in the US one might be against this, as I've lived there (working at a great IT job in central San Francisco), and have seen the poverty, and the human suffering (not to mention the smell of bums on the bus…

In other news, the UK now has the greatest divide between rich and poor in the west. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk-most-unequal-country-in...

1) That article is 18 years old 2) Relative inequality is irrelevant as a measure.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#125

Post by gadders » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 1:39 PM UTC

gutnor wrote: post #118

roel_v wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't understand why someone living on government's check, and having poor health due to a financial inability to go the doctor, is voting against it." Because maybe these people actually see the immorality of taking from others by force? "The problem I am describing is people being manipulated to vote against their own interest." So morality has no bearing on your position? "Fuck morality and others, as long as I…

"immorality " That is a strange moral system you have in the US. In other countries, it is morally acceptable to take from the rich and redistribute to the poor. The reason is that in those countries, wealth and lack of wealth is thought to be a great part influenced by factor outside your control (chance). That is even backed by studies, if you are born in a poor families, you will have less opportunities than a ric…

How is it moral to take somebody else's propety?

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#126

Post by gadders » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 1:49 PM UTC

ucee054 wrote: post #98

tolmasky wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assure you that your "burden" of having to "constantly" listen to Americans educate you about socialism is more than outweighed by people like you assuming we are all one homogeneous mass that behaves that way ("I can tell you're American" followed by a lecture about the "blow your mind" level of intolerance and hatred here, as if that is uniquely American) I wonder how you maintain the cognitive dissonance that so…

Sorry no that's an obvious Americanism (American right-ism). Nobody else on the planet says SOCIALISM with the Bill O'Reilly sneer and think that's a debate-ender. Try to imagine a Chinese or a Frenchman saying that. Doesn't work. That's because in other countries "socialism" isn't a swear word.

It mostly is in the UK, amongst certain people anyway.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#127

Post by gadders » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 1:50 PM UTC

tolmasky wrote: post #103

ucee054 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry no that's an obvious Americanism (American right-ism). Nobody else on the planet says SOCIALISM with the Bill O'Reilly sneer and think that's a debate-ender. Try to imagine a Chinese or a Frenchman saying that. Doesn't work. That's because in other countries "socialism" isn't a swear word.

I have visited plenty of other countries where people have expressed similar sentiments towards "socialism", Canada included. I'm not even sure why I'm bothering responding to this comment, it's so absurd and clearly blindingly biased. As if literally no one on earth other than Americans could dislike socialism that much.

I would imagine it's not very popular in ex-Iron Curtain countries, for instance.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#128

Post by gadders » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 1:56 PM UTC

adamauckland wrote: post #122

rdtsc wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is all well and good. But is there a real world example of an economic and social system that works that is not based on capitalism? And by works here I don't mean just GDP, maybe also life expectancy, crime, health stats, education level, general happiness if available. Basically if I get a free pass and resource to move anywhere, I where do I go find this "better" place that moved beyond Capitalism and is free…

North European countries are social democracies with incredibly high income tax (roughly 30%). I don't think you can tax your way into getting societies like these. The world wars gutted large parts of the population and society had to change. The NHS in the UK was set up in response to having fought a war on their own soil, something which the US has not done in a long time.

Sweden not so much any more: http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/9599/

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#129

Post by mistermann » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 2:42 PM UTC

maratd wrote: post #68

rdtsc wrote: post #52

> The expectation of rising real incomes was built into the American culture Ah that's the classic propaganda line: "I am not poor, I am just pre-wealthy." ...So I sure don't want to vote for anything that would jeopardize my wealthy position when I get there. The key in all of this is ability to manipulate the people into believing and voting in a particular way. US has no shortage of zombies who don't think on thei…

> US has no shortage of zombies who don't think on their won. A human being is at the most juvenile when he encounters a view contrary to his own and ascribes it to stupidity. If only everyone was as enlightened, as educated, as brilliant as he ... then everyone would understand. No. Grow up. I will never be wealthy and I will still continue to vote for a fair tax system. A flat tax system. Because everyone should pa…

You speak with the confidence of a young man. If it's not too intrusive, may I ask your age and gender?

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#130

Post by pyre » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 2:54 PM UTC

martinced wrote: post #26

CleanedStar wrote: post #3

When Karl Marx wrote Capital in 1867, he said capitalism would never be able to get rid of credit bubbles, financial crises, high unemployment etc. He said that over time the problems would get worse and worse with greater and greater financial crises. Here we are about a century and a half later and you just have to look at the housing bubble, the bank crisis, TARP and the government bailout, unemployment in the US…

Because socialism or communism works so much better right? People are especially envious of the great freedom people in North Korea are enjoying? Same as Cuba? Venezuela? Argentina? (wanna change your currency to another one in Argentina to hedge yourself against a very strong inflation? you can't, because the socialist state won't let you do that) What's next after Karl Marx? That the homophobic racist murderer that…

  | Kim-Jong Ill or Kim-Karl Marx

I seriously doubt that Karl Marx would have approved of North Korea. Just because someone calls themselves 'Communist' doesn't necessarily mean it's so. There are plenty of dictatorships that call themselves "The Democratic Repubic of X" or something like that. Just because democracy is in the name doesn't make them democratic.

(Oddly enough, Marx probably would have approved of the Khmer Rouge. He was really into violent upheaval to transition between forms of government.)

  | The first thing socialists and communists tries to do is to
  | ruin everyone and reinforce the power of the state.
  |
  | I choose freedom. Even if it means bubbles and crises.
  |
  | "Better dead than red".

This just seems to be an opinion born of privilege. Would you adhere to "better dead than red" if the death came from starving in the streets (while people born into money like Paris Hilton live it up) rather than some romantic idea of fighting off foreign invaders and living in the hills (i.e. Red Dawn)?