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How Lisp is Going to Save the World

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Re: How Lisp is Going to Save the World

#11
post #5

I am a intermediate programmer with just over one year experience. Everywhere I read about the power of lisp and really want to use it. If it is so good why ain't it is used more? It is very easy to get sites running using ASP .NET, wordpress, RoR or Django. I have worked on production sites using the first two. And personally tried on small projects on the last two. Is there a way to use Lisp professionally?

> If it is so good why ain't it is used more?

* Weird syntax (for most people).

* No free implementations existed during a key period (80s, 90s) so no initial traction, no useful libraries and killer apps which would pull the whole ecosystem. Implementations didnt even exist for commodity hardware.

* The commercial implementations cost too much, so they suffocated the ecosystem. People preferred coding for free in C or Perl, than paying an arm and a leg for Lisp. So they wrote all the useful libs in C, Perl, Java and Python instead of Lisp.

* No canonical implementation, late and incomplete standardisation, which led to extreme fragmentation, which further killed off the growth of the ecosystem. Instead of writing useful libraries, Lispers wasted effort writing 1001 incompatible implementations of the same basic system.

So to summarize, I'd say the Lisp ecosystem is _still_ suffering the consequences of the bad strategic decisions made 30-40 years ago.

But it is slowly but steadily healing and improving, especially the last few years. It has a high-quality free implementation with SBCL [1], consolidated CPAN-like library management with Quicklisp [2] and a IDE with Emacs-based SLIME [3]. Everything is getting better.

[1] http://www.sbcl.org/

[2] http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/

[3] http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/

Re: How Lisp is Going to Save the World

#13
post #5

I am a intermediate programmer with just over one year experience. Everywhere I read about the power of lisp and really want to use it. If it is so good why ain't it is used more? It is very easy to get sites running using ASP .NET, wordpress, RoR or Django. I have worked on production sites using the first two. And personally tried on small projects on the last two. Is there a way to use Lisp professionally?

Here's one bank that is blogging about moving to Clojure: http://www.pitheringabout.com/?p=778 It is used in a few places, but its not common. The reason it isn't used often is because no one bothered to build anything with it. So, if Clojure / Lisp / etc want to make the language popular, you should build something that makes money and tell the world about it. This is what happened with RoR and Django. I have a CRUD…

Do the 1500 LOC include markup, script and css?

Re: How Lisp is Going to Save the World

#14
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one bank that is blogging about moving to Clojure: http://www.pitheringabout.com/?p=778 It is used in a few places, but its not common. The reason it isn't used often is because no one bothered to build anything with it. So, if Clojure / Lisp / etc want to make the language popular, you should build something that makes money and tell the world about it. This is what happened with RoR and Django. I have a CRUD…

Do the 1500 LOC include markup, script and css?

I used Twitter Bootstrap for the CSS...

The 1500 LOC is only Clojure. I could probably dump off 300 if I wanted to.

Re: How Lisp is Going to Save the World

#15
post #5

I am a intermediate programmer with just over one year experience. Everywhere I read about the power of lisp and really want to use it. If it is so good why ain't it is used more? It is very easy to get sites running using ASP .NET, wordpress, RoR or Django. I have worked on production sites using the first two. And personally tried on small projects on the last two. Is there a way to use Lisp professionally?

Here's a good tutorial on how to do web development in Clojure. No, it's not as "batteries included" as Rails, but I found the learning curve pretty gentle.

http://www.vijaykiran.com/2012/01/11/web-application-develop...

Once you have a Ring-based Clojure web-app, you can run it as any other Java Servlet app, eg. in Heroku.

Re: How Lisp is Going to Save the World

#16
With the deepest reverence to John McCarthy, I regret to say that Lisp is our cosmological constant. It creates a static universe that is otherwise expanding; it reduces the problem to a solvable one and then declares victory. The truth is, it's all state. All of it.

Remember that movie "Boy in the Plastic Bubble," about a boy with an immune system deficiency who lives instead a hermetically-sealed, sterile bubble? That's not the answer. We instead need to create immune systems (read: robust systems) rather than simply avoiding them.

[I know I'm simplifying things, and this is not meant to be a slight.]

Re: How Lisp is Going to Save the World

#17
post #2

Wow, that went from a supposed linkbait title to a surprisingly amusing and interesting explanation of Lisp

Thank you. Admittedly, I intentionally worded it to look like one :)

Was that with the intent of baiting clicks, or as satire?

Re: How Lisp is Going to Save the World

#18
post #5

I am a intermediate programmer with just over one year experience. Everywhere I read about the power of lisp and really want to use it. If it is so good why ain't it is used more? It is very easy to get sites running using ASP .NET, wordpress, RoR or Django. I have worked on production sites using the first two. And personally tried on small projects on the last two. Is there a way to use Lisp professionally?

> If it is so good why ain't it is used more? * Weird syntax (for most people). * No free implementations existed during a key period (80s, 90s) so no initial traction, no useful libraries and killer apps which would pull the whole ecosystem. Implementations didnt even exist for commodity hardware. * The commercial implementations cost too much, so they suffocated the ecosystem. People preferred coding for free in C…

To take the reverse perspective, why it is coming up now, I think that in the 80s and 90s, the increase in processing power came in the form of faster processors. Then, pretty suddenly, really, over the past decade, that trend hit a wall, and instead we're getting more cores, but at the same speed. This rekindled the interest in concurrent programming, and Lisps have a distinctive edge in that space.

Re: How Lisp is Going to Save the World

#19

With the deepest reverence to John McCarthy, I regret to say that Lisp is our cosmological constant. It creates a static universe that is otherwise expanding; it reduces the problem to a solvable one and then declares victory. The truth is, it's all state. All of it. Remember that movie "Boy in the Plastic Bubble," about a boy with an immune system deficiency who lives instead a hermetically-sealed, sterile bubble? T…

Lisp is a multi-paradigm language that's perfectly capable of representing state. Perhaps you're confusing it with some purely functional language like Haskell.

Re: How Lisp is Going to Save the World

#20
post #19

With the deepest reverence to John McCarthy, I regret to say that Lisp is our cosmological constant. It creates a static universe that is otherwise expanding; it reduces the problem to a solvable one and then declares victory. The truth is, it's all state. All of it. Remember that movie "Boy in the Plastic Bubble," about a boy with an immune system deficiency who lives instead a hermetically-sealed, sterile bubble? T…

Lisp is a multi-paradigm language that's perfectly capable of representing state. Perhaps you're confusing it with some purely functional language like Haskell.

I'm not saying it can't represent state; I'm saying that it promotes avoidance of state as a virtue.
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