The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power • Hacker News Board

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#41

Post by cantankerous » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 6:13 AM UTC

martinced wrote: post #28

seiji wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please keep writing more around here. We need people like you and comments like this.

No we don't. These are poisonous words made by people dreaming of a world made of slaves. Dreaming of a world where the word "freedom" would be forbidden. The last thing we need now in a time of crisis is socialists or communists trying to push their agenda.

No offense, but aren't you "pushing" an agenda as well? People are entitled to push their agendas in an open forum such as this. I, for one, welcome open and honest discussion in good faith.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#42

Post by kamaal » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 6:15 AM UTC

CleanedStar wrote: post #3

When Karl Marx wrote Capital in 1867, he said capitalism would never be able to get rid of credit bubbles, financial crises, high unemployment etc. He said that over time the problems would get worse and worse with greater and greater financial crises. Here we are about a century and a half later and you just have to look at the housing bubble, the bank crisis, TARP and the government bailout, unemployment in the US…

So to summarize Marx was against growth?

Because if you say we should go down to zero profits, then we get nothing to invest further. Needless to mention the enterprise/corporation/etc itself will have no motivation for growth, why should they when there is nothing to gain?

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#43

Post by cantankerous » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 6:17 AM UTC

TruthElixirX wrote: post #37

pjzedalis wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does capitalism have to lift anyone out of poverty? The opportunity to own assets and control your own production sometimes provides the means to do so. Just because enough impoverished people are not becoming rich per year does not mean capitalism is not working as intended.

Less people are living in poverty now more than ever: http://www.worldvision.org/news/worldwide-fewer-people-live-... Its just that wealth is being more evenly distributed and the U.S. is feeling some of that pressure.

Evenly distributed across the world, you mean. The pressure discussed in this article and probably most of this thread doesn't have to do with that distribution, though. It has to do with the distribution in the US, which has most definitely skewed towards the top. Wealth might be on some trend to level out world-wide, but what's happening here right now and over the past few decades is not that global trend. It's an American trend.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#44

Post by mixmastamyk » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 6:20 AM UTC

martinced wrote: post #26

CleanedStar wrote: post #3

When Karl Marx wrote Capital in 1867, he said capitalism would never be able to get rid of credit bubbles, financial crises, high unemployment etc. He said that over time the problems would get worse and worse with greater and greater financial crises. Here we are about a century and a half later and you just have to look at the housing bubble, the bank crisis, TARP and the government bailout, unemployment in the US…

Because socialism or communism works so much better right? People are especially envious of the great freedom people in North Korea are enjoying? Same as Cuba? Venezuela? Argentina? (wanna change your currency to another one in Argentina to hedge yourself against a very strong inflation? you can't, because the socialist state won't let you do that) What's next after Karl Marx? That the homophobic racist murderer that…

Afraid of ideas and discussing them, eh? You've also thrown together several orthogonal concepts, displaying a lack of understanding common to folks who watch too much corporate television.

I'm no lefty, but you make a lousy case.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#45

Post by malandrew » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 6:20 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #36

CleanedStar wrote: post #3

When Karl Marx wrote Capital in 1867, he said capitalism would never be able to get rid of credit bubbles, financial crises, high unemployment etc. He said that over time the problems would get worse and worse with greater and greater financial crises. Here we are about a century and a half later and you just have to look at the housing bubble, the bank crisis, TARP and the government bailout, unemployment in the US…

Basically workers create $240 of wealth every eight hour work day, but are only paid $200 a day. But workers don't create that much wealth in a day by themselves; they need plant and material to create the product or service that is sold. The buildings they work in, the machinery that they use, the raw material they consume, are equally important inputs to production and it is these which are supplied by the capitali…

Yes and no. Of the $40 the worker is shorted, a portion goes to the capitalist and a portion goes to the buildings they work in, the machinery they use and the raw material they consume. The benefits of those things accrue to the capitalist even though it was finance with the value created by the labor of the worker. Only the upfront costs to begin a business are attributable to the capitalist. All the growth of that business is attributable to the value created by the work being marshalled by the capitalist.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#46

Post by mchannon » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 6:21 AM UTC

I'm confused about the perceived dichotomy of taxation and private investment.

If the government threatens to take their cash, wealthy individuals and entities will find ways to use that cash to further their wealth instead of giving it to the government.

So if the government's taxes are too high, the wealthy won't have the money to invest, but if the taxes are too low, the wealthy have a no-risk, stable return on their cash- sitting on it.

I think this is exactly what we're seeing- low taxes and low inflation are encouraging inefficient use of capital- putting it neither into consumption nor investment.

Just as a wave of unemployment lays the basis for a more efficient workforce, couldn't a new wave of inflation (since taxes are politically impossible) right the ship?

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#47

Post by kamaal » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 6:21 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #36

CleanedStar wrote: post #3

When Karl Marx wrote Capital in 1867, he said capitalism would never be able to get rid of credit bubbles, financial crises, high unemployment etc. He said that over time the problems would get worse and worse with greater and greater financial crises. Here we are about a century and a half later and you just have to look at the housing bubble, the bank crisis, TARP and the government bailout, unemployment in the US…

Basically workers create $240 of wealth every eight hour work day, but are only paid $200 a day. But workers don't create that much wealth in a day by themselves; they need plant and material to create the product or service that is sold. The buildings they work in, the machinery that they use, the raw material they consume, are equally important inputs to production and it is these which are supplied by the capitali…

I think Marx went into over simplification when it came to issues like these.

Even in this case, and in most cases. The workers are actually are super fortunate to even have and opportunity to make $200 without taking any risks at all. Everything is built ready, all the investments and risks are born by somebody else. All you do is work(Im not saying that's easy or insignificant, but it is individually insignificant to the larger scenario where somebody has built a big industry- your contribution are small but are compensated), and at that kind of financial security forgoing 1/6th part of your earnings is hardly a problem.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#48

Post by tolmasky » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 6:24 AM UTC

Fluda3 wrote: post #34

martinced wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No we don't. These are poisonous words made by people dreaming of a world made of slaves. Dreaming of a world where the word "freedom" would be forbidden. The last thing we need now in a time of crisis is socialists or communists trying to push their agenda.

I find HN to be quite rich, in both content and discussions about said content. I don't post because I usually don't have anything significant to add to the conversation. I have to say though, your comment deeply disturbs me. Those weren't poisonous words. And I highly doubt that his comment, which seems quite informative, comes from his "dreams of a world made of slaves". I can tell you're American. Constantly when…

I assure you that your "burden" of having to "constantly" listen to Americans educate you about socialism is more than outweighed by people like you assuming we are all one homogeneous mass that behaves that way ("I can tell you're American" followed by a lecture about the "blow your mind" level of intolerance and hatred here, as if that is uniquely American)

I wonder how you maintain the cognitive dissonance that so many people here seem to hate Obama and Obamacare, yet somehow re-elect him. Must be confusing.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#49

Post by cantankerous » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 6:25 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #36

CleanedStar wrote: post #3

When Karl Marx wrote Capital in 1867, he said capitalism would never be able to get rid of credit bubbles, financial crises, high unemployment etc. He said that over time the problems would get worse and worse with greater and greater financial crises. Here we are about a century and a half later and you just have to look at the housing bubble, the bank crisis, TARP and the government bailout, unemployment in the US…

Basically workers create $240 of wealth every eight hour work day, but are only paid $200 a day. But workers don't create that much wealth in a day by themselves; they need plant and material to create the product or service that is sold. The buildings they work in, the machinery that they use, the raw material they consume, are equally important inputs to production and it is these which are supplied by the capitali…

I think an important detail to consider, if I remember it correctly, is that Marx is assuming that there's a moral imperative to consider when paying workers based on the value of their work because they aren't able to create this kind of value on their own in an industrialized society because the means of production is otherwise owned/controlled by a powerful establishment (bourgeois or something). An agreement between labor and management/capitalism is required to make sure that the workers' are able to take home a pay they find adequate considering the value they create. I think a way Americans have been able to strike this balance in the past is via labor unions. This probably isn't so much the case any more.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#50

Post by jeffdavis » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 6:25 AM UTC

I would be interested to see more statistics and trends of people over time. Many of the statistics I see divide people into classes by income, but ignore the fact that the people within those classes change.

For instance, let's say that people in the next generation decide to go to college for 10 more years, leaving at 32 rather than 22. Then, when they get out, they make 50% more income than the previous generation. Overall, they might be better off throughout their life; but the statistics will make it look like there is a huge lower class (who are in fact just young and haven't reaped the benefits of their education yet).

The more our earning is concentrated to a small part of our lives, the more it will look like class divisions. And depending on how the accounting is done, the upper classes may consist largely of people with temporarily high incomes (from inheritance, selling a house, etc.).

[None of the above is meant to imply that there is not a problem. Just that statistics can be deceptive, and can hide the real solutions from us.]

EDIT: Specifically, I think it would be interesting to divide people into classes like: "X% of people will see an income over $80K sometime during their lives". That seems like a better indicator of opportunity to me.