"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand • Hacker News Board

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#121

Post by mistermann » Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 2:29 AM UTC

dk wrote: post #47

thras wrote: post #9

Wow. Are people impressed by that article because of the sonorous prose? Because the content definitely isn't impressive. Rand's first mistake is not realizing that the love of money quote speaks to individuals and not to societies. An individual who loves the material world more than the spiritual world (not god necessarily, maybe just the world inside his own head), is pitiable. The saddest thing I've ever heard wa…

Where do you (and others) get the idea that Rand is responding to the Bible? She's speaking to/of those who say that money is evil, love of money is evil, and related thoughts. This seems clear from the very first sentence of the speech: "So you think that money is the root of all evil?" Later, "But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak?", "Or did you say it's the love of money that's th…

Rand had serious issues with religion, she wrote about it in her nonfiction. I happen to agree with her by the way.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#122

Post by mistermann » Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 2:43 AM UTC

dualogy wrote: post #82

sridharvembu wrote: post #48

I read this last time 20 years ago as an undergraduate student in India, and I still find it inspiring after all these years. I find it particularly relevant today, when the Federal Reserve and the government are intent on destroying the moral foundation of money. I expand on it at: http://blogs.zoho.com/general/money-as-a-moral-institution

Wow! Using your corporate blog to dispense your opinions on economics (which I share!) is rather 'heroic' in Ayn Rand's sense of the word. I'm not sure I'd do it, but now I wonder why... ;)

Or, you could just read what he wrote. Maybe I missed it, but was he selling something? But then I didn't spend 5 minutes looking for a conspiracy.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#123

Post by mistermann » Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 2:44 AM UTC

gnaritas wrote: post #106

nwjsmith wrote: post #90

Absolutely my favourite bit of Ayn Rand. This speech can single handedly change the way people think about money and their own worth.

Only if they don't think about it too much, I'm amazed people find this selfish drivel so influential.

Feel free to point out the logical inconsistencies.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#124

Post by mistermann » Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 2:51 AM UTC

jibiki wrote: post #105

dualogy wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? 'Abusing others' was certainly nothing she was advocating. Her point was that simply earning money or being good ('strong') is not at all an abuse of poorer or 'weaker' people. While one may get 'rich' by abusing 'weaker' people (i.e. robbers or slave drivers), that is exactly the kind of person she is up against. More specifically, against the kind of robber or potential slave driver who seeks to gain suppor…

How do you feel about things like sweatshops and sharecropping? (Personally, I'd rather be a debt slave than starve to death, but many people see these sorts of businesses as abusive.)

Rand excessively spoke about freedom, and free competition. "Sweatshops", as we see them today, would not occur in an ideal Randian world, as, in free economies, competitors inevitably arise and are more than happy to take your underpaid employees off your hands.

The fact that sweatshops do exist does not prove this false...you'll notice that almost all sweatshops exist in third world countries that are notorious for government corruption. When Rand spoke of freedom, she wasn't joking, she meant real freedom, meaning politicians that are not on the take, that couldn't yank an operating license from a competitor who chose to offer better working conditions.

If you want to speculate and say honesty is literally impossible in human society, feel free, but that is something entirely different than saying that freedom leads to sweatshops.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#125

Post by jacoblyles » Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 3:50 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #118

jacoblyles wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a concrete example. Many people hold the highest moral good to be the elimination of suffering. They believe that we should work to improve the material conditions of the world's least-well-off humans. Ayn believes these people are evil. However, talking to them, I do not believe these people are evil. I believe they are good people. Their instincts are human. It is human nature to be made sad by the suffering…

"Many people hold the highest moral good to be the elimination of suffering. They believe that we should work to improve the material conditions of the world's least-well-off humans. Ayn believes these people are evil. " I don't have a quote to disprove you, but I'm fairly certain you are incorrect. Ayn's problem was moreso with any moral code that obliges you to help those in need, and with any financial or politica…

I am fully aware of the nuance in Randian/libertarian thought regarding the difference between compelled and voluntary action. In an essay, I believe in "The Virtue of Selfishness", Ayn mocks the "maximin" principle (maximizing the welfare of the least well-off) and somewhat cheekily advocates the "maximax" principle (maximizing the welfare of the most well-off). So, no, I don't think she supports living a life of charity, even if it is voluntary.

I am also aware that societies which protect property rights and refrain from excessive public welfare programs have higher economic growth rates than others. In the long run, economic growth surely benefits the least well-off as well as the most well-off.

However, many people's moral feelings lead them to choose a society with lower economic growth if it would benefit the least well-off in the short term. I can't think of any reason a priori to say that their feelings are wrong.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#126

Post by niv » Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 11:28 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #124

jibiki wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you feel about things like sweatshops and sharecropping? (Personally, I'd rather be a debt slave than starve to death, but many people see these sorts of businesses as abusive.)

Rand excessively spoke about freedom, and free competition. "Sweatshops", as we see them today, would not occur in an ideal Randian world, as, in free economies, competitors inevitably arise and are more than happy to take your underpaid employees off your hands. The fact that sweatshops do exist does not prove this false...you'll notice that almost all sweatshops exist in third world countries that are notorious for…

but the world is not ideal, and if money is a strength that can be abused, should you allow anything, without restriction, to be done with it? I believe totaly free economies lead to abuses. It happened in the past.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#127

Post by Ardit20 » Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 1:25 PM UTC

thaumaturgy wrote: post #37

thras wrote: post #9

Wow. Are people impressed by that article because of the sonorous prose? Because the content definitely isn't impressive. Rand's first mistake is not realizing that the love of money quote speaks to individuals and not to societies. An individual who loves the material world more than the spiritual world (not god necessarily, maybe just the world inside his own head), is pitiable. The saddest thing I've ever heard wa…

| An individual who loves the material world more than the spiritual world (not god necessarily, maybe just the world inside his own head), is pitiable. Then pity me, though I wish you wouldn't. I do not find that I can believe in any world other than the material world, at least enough to sacrifice my efforts in this world. If I am going to make a difference, I want to make a difference in the material world, not a…

"If I am going to produce art, I would do so in the material world."

Great works of art make one feel beauty. Is feeling beauty a spiritual event?

I do not know what one may mean by spirituality. Perhaps they regard spirituality in the religious sense, such as a belief in a god and that he will take care of them. However I consider spirituality to be something intrinsic in all human being and quite detached from religion.

Much as intellectual stimulation is the food of the brain so too beauty is the food of the heart and I believe it is in the heart where spirituality, as I see such term, reigns.

If spirituality is what I see it to be, then your argument seems to be flawed as you consider spirituality to be detached from the material world.

I do not see how one can distinguish easily the material world from the spiritual one. If the act of helping out a poor person is considered to be spiritual, such act is still carried out in the material world. It is a material act as you are helping him with material things. Same argument can be used when helping an old lady pass the road. So too the act of feeling beauty is experienced in the material world however the act itself is spiritual. For some even making a difference in the material world is a spiritual act and certainly love is spiritual however facilitated through the material world.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#128

Post by liminalist » Wed, Mar 04, 2009, 7:29 PM UTC

maxharris wrote: post #20

jacoblyles wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ayn Rand often overstates her case for the sake of art (her evil characters, for example, are mostly shallow caricatures). I find that people who don't share her views often mock her works and call her "ridiculous" because she treats some ideas that they hold completely without nuance or sympathy. I can see why they do this, but I think Ayn's detractors overstate their case. She is valuable because she is the only ma…

"but absolute truth shall ever elude humans in this complex world." Why? Do you think a grand unified field theory is impossible? Do you think that quantum mechanics is the final word in physics? Do you suppose that that truth is knowable to some hypothetical race of aliens? (You specifically say that humans can't attain any absolute truth.) Or do you simply think that some truths are unknowable, such as distant hist…

Ever heard of the continuum hypothesis? Know anything about set theory? Etc.

There are plenty of things that logically are either true or false, but logically cannot be proved either way by mere mortals.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#129

Post by dk » Thu, Mar 05, 2009, 7:02 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #121

dk wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you (and others) get the idea that Rand is responding to the Bible? She's speaking to/of those who say that money is evil, love of money is evil, and related thoughts. This seems clear from the very first sentence of the speech: "So you think that money is the root of all evil?" Later, "But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak?", "Or did you say it's the love of money that's th…

Rand had serious issues with religion, she wrote about it in her nonfiction. I happen to agree with her by the way.

To be clear, I made no reference to religion. And I agree with her too.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#130

Post by gnaritas » Thu, Mar 05, 2009, 3:23 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #123

gnaritas wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if they don't think about it too much, I'm amazed people find this selfish drivel so influential.

Feel free to point out the logical inconsistencies.

No need to, anyone who believes this crap isn't looking to be converted. Humans don't tend make decisions logically, they make them emotionally and then use logic to justify those decisions.

I've yet to meet a Rand follower who wasn't really just a selfish emotionally stunted ego maniac who thought they were totally self sufficient and society was mooching off them, especially those lazy poor people. Generally a complete lack of awareness of the interdependence of all men on our societies and forms of government.

You can't get past the first paragraph without noticing that Rand doesn't even know what the phrase "money is the root of all evil" means. It certainly doesn't mean money is evil which is how she interprets it and spends the whole rest of the article knocking down this absurd strawman.

Anyone with half a brain knows "money is the root of all evil" means the love of material possessions has caused much evil in the world.