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Another awesome US immigration experience

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Re: Another awesome US immigration experience

#111

Post by seldo »

ryan wrote: post #19

If you have a green card you can avoid this by signing up for Global Entry[1]. Then you can avoid customs lines and just swipe your card at the kiosk - enter the country without ever talking to anyone. As an extra benefit the kiosk is always empty so you are through in minutes... hmm maybe I shouldn't be spreading the word about this :) [1] http://www.globalentry.gov/

A number of people have recommended this to me; I'm talking to my immigration lawyers now about what happened and the best way to prevent it happening again, but this is a strong possibility.

Re: Another awesome US immigration experience

#112

Post by strictfp »

jacquesm wrote: post #18

As long as you feel the benefits outweigh the downsides the only person you can complain to is yourself. You're still going there aren't you? I've had an episode quite comparable to this one and it was the last time I visited the US. I don't bitch about it, I don't begrudge the border guards their jobs or attitude (I assume they get a lot of shit heaped on them every day, not an excuse for a non-professional attitude…

"If you want our money you better accept that we'll treat you like sh-t. If you won't, please f- off".

I'm not so sure that every citizen agrees that this is a good face to show guests and new members of society.

Re: Another awesome US immigration experience

#113

Post by retrogradeorbit »

mbesto wrote: post #87
seldo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right: I'm here because the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. But this kind of stuff is what tips the balance the other way, not for me, but for other people like yourself. The problem with the US immigration system is that none of the people suffering in it can vote to change it. The purpose of my story is to raise awareness amongst US citizens who understand the importance of immigration to the economy th…

> But this kind of stuff is what tips the balance the other way, not for me, but for other people like yourself. Says who? How do you speak on others behalf? No offense, but your post (like many others) just sounds like someone who is upset that were inconvenienced for a day. If you have all of your papers sorted out (and nothing is fishy), what's so mentally anguishing about having to wait? The problem is, as you sa…

I think your faith in the electoral process changing things is simply that; faith. Hypothetically, what if this policy did impact large numbers of voting Americans, but both parties supported it? How would your vote help to change things then? I ask these questions because there are plenty of examples of laws that adversely affect voting Americans but fall into this category of policy supported by both sides.

Re: Another awesome US immigration experience

#114

Post by jseliger »

jacquesm wrote: post #18

As long as you feel the benefits outweigh the downsides the only person you can complain to is yourself. You're still going there aren't you? I've had an episode quite comparable to this one and it was the last time I visited the US. I don't bitch about it, I don't begrudge the border guards their jobs or attitude (I assume they get a lot of shit heaped on them every day, not an excuse for a non-professional attitude…

> As long as you feel the benefits outweigh the downsides the only person you can complain to is yourself. You're still going there aren't you?

Albert O. Hirschman actually discusses many nuances of this idea in his book Exit, Voice, and Loyalty, which is about the conditions under which people choose to express dissatisfaction about the way things are going. His book is far too nuanced and complex to describe here, but one counter-intuitive point he makes is that exit, and the threat of exit, can make voice less powerful by making sure that those most dissatisfied with a situation (a corporation, government, etc.) can simply leave, without needing to resort to voice.

You're essentially arguing that exit is superior to voice, but in many circumstances voice might be more useful.

The book itself is highly recommended, and once you read it you'll see its ideas applicable in all sorts of unexpected situations (like this one).

Re: Another awesome US immigration experience

#115

Post by retrogradeorbit »

monkeypizza wrote: post #95
jacquesm wrote: post #18

As long as you feel the benefits outweigh the downsides the only person you can complain to is yourself. You're still going there aren't you? I've had an episode quite comparable to this one and it was the last time I visited the US. I don't bitch about it, I don't begrudge the border guards their jobs or attitude (I assume they get a lot of shit heaped on them every day, not an excuse for a non-professional attitude…

I think it's really weird when people argue that the only acceptable response to problems is to quit. Complaining is a valid response, too! "Albert O. Hirschman makes a basic distinction between alternative ways of reacting to deterioration in business firms and, in general, to dissatisfaction with organizations: one, “exit,” is for the member to quit the organization or for the customer to switch to the competing pr…

Most people start with 'voice'. It's when they're told to STFU that the strategy is shifted to 'exit'. This immigration situation would fit this. How far do you think you'd get in this situation with a complaint?

Re: Another awesome US immigration experience

#117

Post by smsm42 »

seldo wrote: post #92
smsm42 wrote: post #65

Let's look at the incentives. The picture here is not pretty. There's a big incentive to squeeze budgets, of course, anybody who watches US politics knows you can't just get any money you want, especially when there's 2 dozen another 3-letter agencies competing for the same. There's some incentive to serve citizens better - since once in the country, the citizen can call his congressmen or his local paper and raise h…

One of those incentives could be if US citizens decided to complain about the immigration system -- the point of the post is to attempt to marginally contribute towards that happening.

Look at TSA. Did ordinary citizens defeat TSA? Not nearly. In ten years the most they did is to get kids excluded from patdowns and shoe removal. And with TSA it is pretty much obvious for anybody who looks closely it serves next to no useful purpose. What would you tell are the chances of US citizens to make serious change in immigration enforcement where everybody recognizes it does serve useful purpose? I am not optimistic, unfortunately.

Re: Another awesome US immigration experience

#118

Post by jacquesm »

retrogradeorbit wrote: post #108
jacquesm wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you feel like levelling the playing field a bit with respect to your accidents of birth then I'm quite sure that those countries would be happy to strike you from their registers if you asked nicely. On the other hand, since you were given this for free and it wasn't your fault you might as well enjoy the privilege. Personally I think all immigration controls should be abolished. The world will be hell for about a…

I've have thought about these lines before. Free movement of people is the final freedom. First they freed up the movement of goods (once upon a time you couldn't just order a product freely from another country). Then they freed up the movement of capital (likewise once upon a time you couldn't freely invest your money in a foreign country). If they freed the movement of people then you'd have a sort of anarchistic…

I completely agree with you. That's exactly what would happen, people would vote with their feet against dictators and abuse.

Borders are either to stop people from leaving or to stop people from arriving. In the first case it is dictators creating a captive audience they can fleece and manipulate. In the second it's the haves that desperately want to avoid being confronted with haves-not.

Take away the borders and you'll reach a natural state of equilibrium in a very short time. A lot of holy apple-carts will be upset by such a move.

Re: Another awesome US immigration experience

#119

Post by chii »

jacques_chester wrote: post #61
ryan wrote: post #19

If you have a green card you can avoid this by signing up for Global Entry[1]. Then you can avoid customs lines and just swipe your card at the kiosk - enter the country without ever talking to anyone. As an extra benefit the kiosk is always empty so you are through in minutes... hmm maybe I shouldn't be spreading the word about this :) [1] http://www.globalentry.gov/

Global Entry is open to U.S. citizens, lawful permanent residents, Dutch citizens, South Korean citizens and Mexican nationals. Canadian citizens and residents may enjoy Global Entry benefits through membership in the NEXUS program. OK, I like Dutch people, but how'd they get into this sweet deal ahead of classic US friends-and-allies like the UK or Australia?

Australia is more like the lapdog of the US, not an equal allie...just my opinion ;)

Re: Another awesome US immigration experience

#120

Post by doktrin »

jacquesm wrote: post #18

As long as you feel the benefits outweigh the downsides the only person you can complain to is yourself. You're still going there aren't you? I've had an episode quite comparable to this one and it was the last time I visited the US. I don't bitch about it, I don't begrudge the border guards their jobs or attitude (I assume they get a lot of shit heaped on them every day, not an excuse for a non-professional attitude…

> As long as you feel the benefits outweigh the downsides the only person you can complain to is yourself. You're still going there aren't you?

I disagree with this line of reasoning.

It is fully valid to complain about injustice and unfair policies. It's not a binary choice between complete avoidance and submitting to some arbitrary humiliation.

I might also add that you are speaking from a position of considerable privilege. Many of those who choose to emigrate to the US don't have as easy of a choice as yourself, in that they may hail from less friendly countries of origin.

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