Earlier quoted context omitted.
Remember that dating works much like a market. There is supply and demand, and since there are about as many men as women, the supply and demand is roughly equal. But in some places this ratio is not equal. I'm not sure about dating sites, but that could be such a place. Simplifying a lot: if there are 1000 women and 2000 men then the women will date the 1000 most attractive men, and the rest have basically no chance…
Thanks, very thoughtful post, indeed I think it is a market. My point is that there are attributes of mine which rule out women who I find at least vaguely attractive (and I'm not being picky, honestly), so perhaps I'm simply not able to compete in this market. I wish the physical factors such as height weren't such a big factor, as that is obviously impossible to change. If I believed I could eliminate it, I'd gladl…
A Million First Dates
111–120 of 150 posts
Re: A Million First Dates
#112For a certain subset (perhaps minority) of the population, these sites are nothing but a bait-and-switch. And I think dating sites attract many of us (as I am indeed a member of this subset.) I'm talking about people who lack the pre-requisites women require for mate selection which if not fulfilled, no other characteristics typically matter. Firstly - height - if you are significantly below the national average, you…
I hesitate to post this because I am not interested in being hit on and I am not interested in adding to the pile on of people criticizing you. But I spent all this time writing the damn thing. Sigh. So here it is, fwiw: You know, I have gotten a crapload of rejection and hostility in recent years, not in a dating context but in another social context. So I am very familiar with how hard it is to remain open and do t…
I'm sorry to hear that you have experienced rejection + hostility, and of course I've not exactly had fun with this, but I can't rule out what I've seen in terms of my own rejection, and having read about many others' experiences re: height.
Of course all of this is just what happens on average. There are always exceptions to the rule, and in fact I have had girlfriends before, so even for me.
To be honest, that guy sounds quite unpleasant, it's not something I do or would do, though I am very frustrated by the situation.
What's frustrating about height is that it seems to be such a universal requirement for women. It's not just some who are 'shallow', though I wouldn't say it was shallow, rather that it's criteria for feeling physical attraction. I'd say the closest thing for men is weight (though I am emphatically not saying men are innocent, of course we aren't), but that can be changed, even if it's incredibly difficult to do so.
Dating sites are definitely a numbers game/meat market type of thing, but to get absolutely no response whatsoever after so many messages, not even being told to go away, says something I think. If it was fewer, or I'd had even 1 response I'd think differently.
Thanks for commenting, I appreciate your input.
Re: A Million First Dates
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
Obviously online, I have frequently attempted contact, before reaching a stage where I could ask that, but that was the purpose. In real life, I have usually not got so far as to ask for a date, as I have been rejected out of hand before getting that far. And the friends who I wanted to go out with, I have asked out and been rejected. I don't think it's that ridiculous, for one we're talking 2 sigma out of the norm,…
First, returns on online dating are typically abysmally low, for everyone. Online dating shouldn't be thought of as anything other than a novelty. I think I heard somewhere that being short counts against you online more than in real life because of how easy it is to dismiss someone just based on that number. Second, as I suspected, you haven't actually asked many girls out (is the number around 2-4?) This is most of…
Well you're inferring that number, the real number is probably closer to 12 over the past year or two, which I guess you could argue is still pretty low. Mostly they have rejected even speaking to me out of turn to the extent I couldn't ask for a date even if I wanted.
I wish I could believe you on the numbers count, but yet again my experience has been wholesale rejection. And there is a cost for each rejection, after being made to feel worthless + unloveable for the 20th time, you begin to wonder is this worth it?
Additionally I feel like this all requires me to be somebody I'm not - try to act confident, because I am a skeptic and humble in what I do, I don't ever feel like I'm special or able to speak out confidently. I feel like faking that would be betraying myself in a way that I'm not willing to do just for a relationship. So perhaps this is partly a choice, I am not willing to sell myself to score dates.
The short people I know who do better are either v. good looking (nothing I can do about that) or especially confident in a cocky way.
If I'd had a hint of iterative success in anything I'd try I'd be willing to go along with this, but I've not, nothing. There has to be a point where constant 100% failure causes you to think 'is it worthwhile spending my limited years of life pursuing this?'
Re: A Million First Dates
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks, very thoughtful post, indeed I think it is a market. My point is that there are attributes of mine which rule out women who I find at least vaguely attractive (and I'm not being picky, honestly), so perhaps I'm simply not able to compete in this market. I wish the physical factors such as height weren't such a big factor, as that is obviously impossible to change. If I believed I could eliminate it, I'd gladl…
I can assure you that a fit small body is more attractive than an unfit large one to a sizable amount of people (for what it's worth, Tom Cruise is not tall either). From what I've heard the importance given to height may be a US phenomenon. It's still a plus elsewhere, but less so. Are you in the US? Height also varies a lot between countries: you would would be tall in Indonesia (average 5'2), but here in the Nethe…
I'm in the UK, average is around 5'10" here. I am in bottom 2.5% of male population height-wise.
Tom Cruise is considered to be rather good looking + confident is he not? He's a good example of the factors which can counteract short height. Note he's a couple inches taller than me also :-)
Re: A Million First Dates
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ugh, that guy sounds gross. I'm sure he's cool in person but if one were to simply follow this strict list of items they could very easily end up turning themselves into a douche bag. Do we have to become someone we hate to attract people we like? More likely than not there is an element that trumps the others which your friend fails to mention: personally/charisma. Someone who has it just thinks they are "talking" a…
> "Do we have to become someone we hate to attract people we like?" What part of the list above is worth hating? All of the qualities listed seem very morally benign. Well dressed, well spoken, to the point, confident, and smells nice. Any baggage that comes with those descriptors are your own. Nobody is making you buy the jagerbombs and popped collars part.
On the surface, "don't be nice" appears pretty douchey.
I suppose it's possible the poster just poorly communicated, and there's a reasonable concept (like "don't be 'fake-nice', be genuinely kind") hiding behind that bad phraseology. If so, it's up to the prior poster to clarify.
Re: A Million First Dates
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure, and the fact that many, MANY people have experienced this height-bias, and women openly admit to preferring it is entirely my imagination. I think this 'think positively and it will be' stuff is more than a little wishful thinking. It reminds me of the 'love yourself and then they will love you' bullshit. I know somebody who has a great job, is good looking and tall, but utterly depressed so clearly doesn't lov…
Nobody has denied the height bias. We all admit it exists. The difference is that we treat it as a handicap, and not even a particularly game-ending one. You're the one falling upon absolutes. In reality being short is like having 9 fingers. You will never out-type a 10-fingered person, but you can type plenty fast.
My experience has been that it's a huge factor. What frustrates me about this kind of response is that I have worked very hard, lost > 55lb in weight, asked women out in real life, ~150 online, etc. with a positive attitude and got nothing in return, and yet suggestions like that suggest it's all my fault and I'm simply afraid of admitting failure.
I wish I could believe there were things I could do to overcome this, but I don't. I have friends who are short yet a little bit taller than me who are perfectly positive yet experience exactly the same thing. It doesn't bode well - at what point do you think 'this handicap is just too much'?
I work for a startup by the way, so this is not an attitude I take to everything in life :-) however, if all evidence points one way, wouldn't it be mad to somehow have faith that the fact isn't so?
Re: A Million First Dates
#117For a certain subset (perhaps minority) of the population, these sites are nothing but a bait-and-switch. And I think dating sites attract many of us (as I am indeed a member of this subset.) I'm talking about people who lack the pre-requisites women require for mate selection which if not fulfilled, no other characteristics typically matter. Firstly - height - if you are significantly below the national average, you…
I had a very similar attitude to yours about 6 years ago. I sympathize with your frustration. Although I am not denying that it may be harder for you to find someone, I think your current attitude/self-perspective is not helpful to you. I highly recommend this book, in absolute seriousness: http://www.amazon.com/Self-Esteem-Cognitive-Techniques-Asses... ; It was a real revelation to me. Don't dismiss it as psychobabb…
Re: A Million First Dates
#118For a certain subset (perhaps minority) of the population, these sites are nothing but a bait-and-switch. And I think dating sites attract many of us (as I am indeed a member of this subset.) I'm talking about people who lack the pre-requisites women require for mate selection which if not fulfilled, no other characteristics typically matter. Firstly - height - if you are significantly below the national average, you…
(Then again, I bet the fact that sooo many men overtly state that they are looking for someone up to but no older than their own age probably amazes/dumbfounds/exasperates the ladies just as much.)
At the time, I eventually realized that the main thing that the women were saying was that they wanted a man taller than their own height--not necessarily taller than other men. (There were a lot of descriptions in their profiles like "must be taller than I am in heels", which always seemed like a clever way to make the "requirement" sound sexy btw.) Anyway, the point is that there are plenty of short girls around, and I went out of dates with a number of very attractive ladies who were shorter than I. Nothing in particular came of it, but I generally had a good time and never felt like I had wasted an evening.
A friend of mine has done lots of research in an academic capacity in this area (using source data from dating sites, speed dating services, etc), and one thing that has been proven rather definitively as far as he is concerned is that ladies behave differently when they are in a "competitive" mating situation such as a speed dating event, bar/club, etc. All the things they say they want in a man (stable, nice, smart, funny) go out the window and they just go for whoever is "hottest". Dating sites appear to trigger many of the same behaviors. But if you look at who they end up with long-term, it's a whole different set of factors that matter (again, not necessarily what they say to themselves or others). I can't provide any source links for this research, and I am massively paraphrasing from memory, but these are, I think, legit gists of some pretty legit findings unless my memory is doing me a terrible disservice today.
As the risk of offending USA-born females who might be reading, I would suggest perhaps trying to focus on ladies from other lands, as from my (all caveats about small sample size noted but notwithstanding) personal experience, the literal-minded "list of requirements" is somewhat of an American-girl-next-door phenomenon. My girl is from one of the lands down under and is the find of the century (and physically well out of what I had perceived to be my league). We are delightfully married in a "soul-mate" style and couldn't be happier. I spend many a moment disbelieving my own luck. FWIW, she is just about the exact same height as I am.
[Edit: I missed that you're from the UK so the USA-biased part of my post here is questionable at best. Sorry!]
I mention my wonderful wife not to brag, hopefully, but just to point out there are so many exceptions to whatever evolutionary/social programming we have (so much noise amongst the signals) that the rules only matter in the aggregate, not to the individual. At least that's my experience, one shortish geek to another. :)
My armchair analysis of my friend's papers, my own experience, and other reading is that both men and women have an elaborate system of truths and deceptions in our heads about what we are looking for in a mate. Many women have this annoying height thing and a bunch of stuff about income (sometimes masked, sometimes not). Many men have similar stuff about age, measurements, etc. Both are, I believe, about trading up genetically--so that our imagined offspring will have a genetic advantage in successive generations. But those are "10,000 foot view" ways of initially identifying potential mates when faced with a big group of them (like "all the guys on this site" or "all the chicks in this city"). On a one-on-one level though, it's a whole different story--a whole different set of things can trigger that "my genese might be able to trade up here" response. And meanwhile, our conscious brains are doing their own thing--getting intrigued, falling in love, etc--which are using a much more sophisticated type of modeling than the crude ">= meanHeight" gating that we think it might be from looking at the "hard" evidence.
Anyway, the main reason I wanted to post a response here was to respond that:
1)Yes, yes, a thousand times yes the "height thing" is a real thing. It feels and appears to be a glass ceiling. 2) It is really frustrating, so frustrating that it's tempting to write the whole enterprise off as the realm of the tanned and shallow. 3) But, as demonstrable as the rules appear to be--the evidence right in front of you--they are illusory and don't actually apply. That's my experience anyway.
Re: A Million First Dates
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ugh, that guy sounds gross. I'm sure he's cool in person but if one were to simply follow this strict list of items they could very easily end up turning themselves into a douche bag. Do we have to become someone we hate to attract people we like? More likely than not there is an element that trumps the others which your friend fails to mention: personally/charisma. Someone who has it just thinks they are "talking" a…
> "Do we have to become someone we hate to attract people we like?" What part of the list above is worth hating? All of the qualities listed seem very morally benign. Well dressed, well spoken, to the point, confident, and smells nice. Any baggage that comes with those descriptors are your own. Nobody is making you buy the jagerbombs and popped collars part.
> Nobody is making you buy the jagerbombs and popped collars part.
This is true. I guess I just cant help the correlation in my head, because it seems to be that prevalent.
Re: A Million First Dates
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, I'm not. Anybody who's tried in real life as well as online, knows what an impact these factors have, especially height, irritatingly given its arbitrariness in western society. I spent months trying online, have tried in real life, parties, bars, you name it for years. I am actually pretty good socially. Believe me, this is not for want of trying. I am not willing to join random clubs to try to meet women, as my…
Please don't buy into the evolutionary psychology BS. Human relationships are mostly defined by cultural norms, not genetics, or else short people would have been selected out millions of years ago. Women incorporate the same things that all of us do, our culture: imaginary (and largely delusional) hollywood fantasies about ideal romances. The truth is both men and women are equally lost in the dating game when indiv…
I think that humans are taller than we were millions of years ago. So yes, in some sense short people are getting selected out. (Though I don't have data. I'm actually more confident that we're taller than we were thousands of years ago, than that we're taller we were pre-agriculture.)
2.5% of people will always be 2σ below the norm.