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College vs Start-up - It's not about the job

danieltenner.com

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Re: College vs Start-up - It's not about the job

#51

Post by quilby »

timr wrote: post #23
quilby wrote: post #17

Im 16 and I dropped out of school to go learn CS at a university (tau.ac.il). 1. Some of the professors are not interested in teaching- they do it because they have to. They rarely answer questions and go way to fast over the material. 2. We have to take many math courses. I was very interested in math until I got to university. Why? Because if you have a bad teacher you cant learn a lot. 3. Out of the about 300 peop…

I'm going to go out on a limb, and guess that you're in your first year. Stick it out -- the first year is the worst. The classes are large, the students are just exploring (and aren't "interested"), the professors are teaching boring introductory courses, and no one is particularly inspired. Stick through this part, and you'll find that things rapidly become more challenging and interesting.

Thats right- Im in my first year. I really hope you are right.

Re: College vs Start-up - It's not about the job

#52

Post by wheels »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #37
wheels wrote: post #3

The main reason I'm usually not a huge fan of the college-no-college discussions is because they're "big identity" discussions ( http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html ). Most readers of this site made a choice when they were kids or very near to it and the position that they defend tends to reflect the choice, well informed or otherwise, that they made then.

I don't buy into the identity concept as PG pitches it. My identity is that I've got a beard and flat feet -- I could care less about those issues. My identity is that I own a Jeep and love philosophy -- feel free to rag on both of those all you want. It's just an oversimplification and not useful in the real world. People get defensive when you call into question their competence or judgment. Some people feel that a…

I'd say the opposite -- it's something which is useful in the real world, regardless of if I'd use the same labels for it as Paul does. There are some topics that tend towards people talking past each other. This is one of them. How many people do you think have read this thread and changed their opinion on the worth of college? Few, if any. Most people are just rehashing decisions they made years ago -- just like every two weeks when we have this discussion all over again.

Why does a group of people who by and large have already made this decision -- and won't be making it again -- find it so worthwhile to keep debating it? Probably because explaining the choice they made makes them feel better about themselves.

Re: College vs Start-up - It's not about the job

#53

Post by DanielBMarkham »

wheels wrote: post #52
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy into the identity concept as PG pitches it. My identity is that I've got a beard and flat feet -- I could care less about those issues. My identity is that I own a Jeep and love philosophy -- feel free to rag on both of those all you want. It's just an oversimplification and not useful in the real world. People get defensive when you call into question their competence or judgment. Some people feel that a…

I'd say the opposite -- it's something which is useful in the real world, regardless of if I'd use the same labels for it as Paul does. There are some topics that tend towards people talking past each other. This is one of them. How many people do you think have read this thread and changed their opinion on the worth of college? Few, if any. Most people are just rehashing decisions they made years ago -- just like ev…

The problem with that viewpoint, in my opinion, is that it's a throwaway: instead of figuring out the problem, simply categorize something as "unproductive to talk about" and ignore it.

Whether or not the conversation is boring is another matter entirely. Obviously somebody posted the article, so it means something to somebody. After a while, I'm going to stop reading all these college vs. no college articles. So will everyone else, I imagine. Nature will take it's toll.

I trust my fellow posters to come on here with an open mind. That's not out of any kindness on my part -- it's simply a practical matter. There's no point in posting anything at all if you're just talking past one another.

We're talking. See? Obviously both of us feel that there is some information that is being exchanged that is worthwhile about some tangential part of this topic.

I think I come at this from the standpoint of having to work with people all day long that have strong opinions about technology. If I had an option of simply ignoring subjects that my clients found difficult to come to grips with, my work would be a lot easier. And nothing would get done.

Yes. There are some topics that people tend to talk past each other. Those are the most important ones to talk about. What? You want to spend your time on things nobody feels strongly about? As long as the chat is productive, bring it on. If it's not productive, downvote it, ignore it, and move on. Just like anything else that's not worthy of your or my time.

EDIT: I don't want to look like I'm changing my opinion, so what I mean is that there are some topics that people tend to associate directly with their judgment and self-worth. Religion is one of those. Politics is another. But gee, it can be anything. This emotional entanglement is just a part of human nature and is part of real-world conversations.

Re: College vs Start-up - It's not about the job

#54

Post by andylei »

I think it really depends on what kind of university you get into. If you get into a university like MIT, Stanford, CalTech, etc, there's a good chance that you'll be surrounded by a lot of entrepreneurial engineers. Even if you don't get a lot out of classes there, you'll at least meet a lot of interesting people that you can found with, or at the very least, be friends with.

Now meeting hackers at other schools is also possible, and I'd say pretty probable, if you try hard enough.

Having a network of hackers is pretty useful, especially for founding, and I think people underrate the value of relationships developed in college. There's no other environment quite like college, and even if you don't agree that the relationships built in that environment aren't uniquely valuable, I think you can probably agree that they're unique.

Re: College vs Start-up - It's not about the job

#55

Post by aikiai »

webwright wrote: post #33
tigerthink wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. Did anyone do one or the other and regret it?

I regret going to college before I understood how real life really worked. I would've taken it more seriously, picked a major a bit more deliberately, etc. If I ever had kids, I'd tell them I'd pay for a chunk of college-- if they put it off for 1-2 years after high school.

Agreed. It only took me 1-2 years out of college to begin to regret all the things I DIDN'T study while I was there. If I'd taken a year or two, worked, and got some "partying" out of my system, my college years would have been much better spent.

College should not be a way to delay a child's real life. It should be part of their strategy to live a good one.

Re: College vs Start-up - It's not about the job

#56

Post by swombat »

wheels wrote: post #52
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy into the identity concept as PG pitches it. My identity is that I've got a beard and flat feet -- I could care less about those issues. My identity is that I own a Jeep and love philosophy -- feel free to rag on both of those all you want. It's just an oversimplification and not useful in the real world. People get defensive when you call into question their competence or judgment. Some people feel that a…

I'd say the opposite -- it's something which is useful in the real world, regardless of if I'd use the same labels for it as Paul does. There are some topics that tend towards people talking past each other. This is one of them. How many people do you think have read this thread and changed their opinion on the worth of college? Few, if any. Most people are just rehashing decisions they made years ago -- just like ev…

Actually, looking at the thread below, and on the article itself, I can see several replies that are by people who are around that age, where they have that choice, and are hesitating. I can only hope that my article will have helped them in their choice. If it helps even one, imho, the article was worth writing.

Re: College vs Start-up - It's not about the job

#57

Post by wheels »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #53
wheels wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say the opposite -- it's something which is useful in the real world, regardless of if I'd use the same labels for it as Paul does. There are some topics that tend towards people talking past each other. This is one of them. How many people do you think have read this thread and changed their opinion on the worth of college? Few, if any. Most people are just rehashing decisions they made years ago -- just like ev…

The problem with that viewpoint, in my opinion, is that it's a throwaway: instead of figuring out the problem, simply categorize something as "unproductive to talk about" and ignore it. Whether or not the conversation is boring is another matter entirely. Obviously somebody posted the article, so it means something to somebody. After a while, I'm going to stop reading all these college vs. no college articles. So wil…

Useful discussion is that which has the ability to inform decision, generally. Out of 54 comments here, 52 are from people who seem to be past this point and the other 2 seem to already know what they want to do. It'd be cute to think that those other 52 are really doing it for the good of the remaining 2, but do you really believe that?

If this were say, one of the many discussions about database tech, caching and whatnot -- even though we've got a lot of experts in those fields people still change their minds, are open to new view points, and use that information to make future decisions.

This is like the girl I'm dating and I arguing over which of our home countries has the best food. We're arguing over formative experiences that have just become part of who we are. It's cute banter, but really not more. Just because we're going to continually disagree, and we're both throughly convinced of our rightness, doesn't mean that it's an important thing for us to keep discussing.

Re: College vs Start-up - It's not about the job

#58

Post by timr »

quilby wrote: post #51
timr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to go out on a limb, and guess that you're in your first year. Stick it out -- the first year is the worst. The classes are large, the students are just exploring (and aren't "interested"), the professors are teaching boring introductory courses, and no one is particularly inspired. Stick through this part, and you'll find that things rapidly become more challenging and interesting.

Thats right- Im in my first year. I really hope you are right.

Trust me...the professors don't like the first-year courses any more than you do. They're a necessary evil.

Once you've selected a major, the coursework becomes much more interesting and difficult. There will be plenty to challenge you.

Re: College vs Start-up - It's not about the job

#59

Post by quizbiz »

SpencerDavis wrote: post #47
Zev wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if someone spends 3 years in a specialization they picked out when they were 12 or 13 and realize they hate it? You can't reasonably expect people that age to know what they want to do for the rest of their life.

I am now a senior in high school and this year I am taking classes in Data Structures, Assembly Language and Shell Programming. I have already taken classes in C, Unix and Java. For me, it has been great to be able to take classes that I am actually interested in instead of just the ones that involve the least work like many of my friends have (CS is the only department with that many specialized classes). I wasn't f…

Do you go to a specialized school? If only such classes were offered here. I too am a high school senior but everything I know (little compared to you) is self taught. I am looking to college to supplement that.

Re: College vs Start-up - It's not about the job

#60

Post by DanielBMarkham »

wheels wrote: post #57
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that viewpoint, in my opinion, is that it's a throwaway: instead of figuring out the problem, simply categorize something as "unproductive to talk about" and ignore it. Whether or not the conversation is boring is another matter entirely. Obviously somebody posted the article, so it means something to somebody. After a while, I'm going to stop reading all these college vs. no college articles. So wil…

Useful discussion is that which has the ability to inform decision, generally. Out of 54 comments here, 52 are from people who seem to be past this point and the other 2 seem to already know what they want to do. It'd be cute to think that those other 52 are really doing it for the good of the remaining 2, but do you really believe that? If this were say, one of the many discussions about database tech, caching and w…

I learned that college excels at helping people hook up with cofounders -- I hadn't thought of that is such clear terms before today (and I immediately stole the idea and commented with it!) Since I am in search of a cofounder, now I will begin thinking about using college as an avenue to do that. Not life changing, just yet, but it made a difference.

Others have pointed out learning things from the conversation, including the person who posted the article.

For you, perhaps, it seems like old hat and re-hash, and it has that faint whiff for me too, but every now and then a little glimmer of light shines through. That's why longer posts are usually better than short ones -- you're more likely to stumble on an area that nobody has thought about if you try to be thorough.

I know how you feel, though (I think). I get the same burnt-out feeling when I see yet another article on git, or piracy, or CSS vs non-CSS, or functional vs. imperative, etc.

Heck, if you think about it, there's a lot of topics where we're mostly just talking past each other. That's kind of my point: people get emotionally entangled with the weirdest stuff. Instead of trying to generically categorize it, I just accept it as a natural part of human interaction. If had a magic list of topics to avoid that would be nice, but unrealistic.

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