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Do people really want to look at multiple windows at once?

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Re: Do people really want to look at multiple windows at once?

#31

Post by cfn »

PeterisP wrote: post #11

Disregard powerusers - think about office tasks for simple non-tech people that need multiple applications for a single logical task. For example, a common scenario of needing reference material while doing or creating something: Project manager writing a budget estimate (excel or email) while repeatedly looking at a project proposal (word or pdf). Secretary discussing a meeting schedule (email, skype) while looking…

I think you are right in a general way but giving two screens to average office users may not have those results right away. Two screens increase the cognitive load and require some skills that most people in that setting do not possess. This means that they may need some training before the increase in productivity appears. This is based on my anedoctal experience so YMMV.

Re: Do people really want to look at multiple windows at once?

#32

Post by vidarh »

keithpeter wrote: post #19
vidarh wrote: post #6

As an old Amiga user, I find the "new" movement to full screen UI's amusing. It's back to the future. 1985 all over again. And I like it. I've run most my apps full screen for years, trying to get back to simulating something like the Amiga "screens". Now, I do need to see multiple windows at times. But I also prefer not to most of the time. On the Amiga this was well catered for: - You started with the Workbench scr…

" I'm 95% of the way back there now, with Ubuntu with Unity (even got the global menu bar back - yay!), but there are still annoying niggles in my workflow.. " What you describe sounds very like the way I use dwm/dmenu (suckless tools on Linux) on a small screen. Each application has its own 'tab' (workspace in dwm), those are the private screens. Your 'public' screens sound like the dwm behaviour where you can 'merg…

Yes, sounds similar. On the Amiga, all screens can have a backdrop window + floating windows. The backdrop is usually provided by the app that opens the screen, but not always. On public screens you'd usually only use floating windows, but there's no real reason why you couldn't ut backdrop windows there too. No tiling support, though.

I was actually planning on installing dwm or another tiling window manager until I had Ubuntu 12.04 installed on my new laptop and decided it was nice enough that I'd try it for a while, and I've stayed with it because enough of the apps I use on it handles very well to strip various chrome when maximized, and most of them are nicely integrated with the new global menu bar.

I do use alt-F11 or equivalent for many apps sometimes, but I find it's poorly tuneable for too many apps. E.g. sometimes I want some chrome, like tabs or location bar for a browser visible but nothing else, but the full screen modes for many apps are more "presentation modes" (Chrome on OS-X at least interestingly separates "full screen" and "presentation mode" - few apps do that)

It's definitively a way of working that came about due to small screens or low resolutions (the default Workbench screen on the Amiga was 640x256 for PAL and 640x200 for NTSC... 640x512 or 640x400 if you could stand the flicker of an interlaced display...), and that makes more difference on small screens, but these days I tend to use it for larger screens too.

Though on larger screens I do sometimes think I'd like a tiling WM again (I used to use Ion way back), so I might just give it a shot. I wonder if any of the tiling WMs would integrate ok with Dash and the global menu bar in Ubuntu, as I actually really like those parts, though... Perhaps it's time to do some testing again.

Re: Do people really want to look at multiple windows at once?

#33

Post by vidarh »

dimitar wrote: post #30

I think going back historically, overlapping windows appeared on PCs around the same time as VGA (more powerfull platforms had them earlier). The early apps didn't have so many features (and menus) and often had to work together often so it made sense to have them side by side and not to bother closing them to open them again in a few seconds. Now, it depends on the screen (resolution). Isn't it pointless to maximize…

I maximize even on large screens because I like to remove the clutter for focus more than because I need the space. I don't want to have a chat window or terminal or anything else distracting me when I read or write something, for example.

Re: Do people really want to look at multiple windows at once?

#35

Post by interpol_p »

Seeing multiple windows at once reminds you that those windows exist and can be interacted with. It's the out of sight, out of mind thing. People like multiple windows not because they interact with them or read them simultaneously, but because they remind you of what you are working on and what needs your attention.

Single-window workflows work great on tablets and phones, but when you have a large monitor it's not always necessary to scale windows to the full resolution. Most apps are 1-dimensional — your code scrolls vertically, your video timeline track horizontally, and so on.

Re: Do people really want to look at multiple windows at once?

#36

Post by vidarh »

rartichoke wrote: post #25
Kiro wrote: post #17

"For example, a web developer will be looking at 2 windows all the time - a text editor and a browser." I'm a web developer and I never do this. Why would I? One window is always sufficient for me.

That's because you likely haven't optimized your development experience. With both open at once and the ability to auto-reload you see instant feedback by just moving your eyes a foot or 2 over (assuming dual monitors here) instead of having to alt-tab cycle into the correct window or move your hands and use the mouse. I usually have a few things in view while developing and it's just annoying (read: poor user experi…

I usually put things on a separate desktop, and only cycle between the windows on that desktop, so I never have to press more than one key combination that is an easy combination to make with one hand, to switch between the two. I'd much rather do that than have to shift my head all the time.

I certainly don't want the distraction of stuff auto-reloading while I'm still working on a change (e.g. switching to the next file I want to update).

Re: Do people really want to look at multiple windows at once?

#37

Post by bloaf »

PeterisP wrote: post #11

Disregard powerusers - think about office tasks for simple non-tech people that need multiple applications for a single logical task. For example, a common scenario of needing reference material while doing or creating something: Project manager writing a budget estimate (excel or email) while repeatedly looking at a project proposal (word or pdf). Secretary discussing a meeting schedule (email, skype) while looking…

I would argue that if there is an advantage to having more than one monitor, then there is an advantage to having at least that many software windows. A sufficiently large monitor could then emulate a multiple-monitor setup.

Re: Do people really want to look at multiple windows at once?

#38

Post by bloaf »

stickdick wrote: post #22

Have people actually tried out Windows 8? On a desktop PC, once you get past the start screen it's almost identical to Windows 7.

I have actually recently found two differences that made me consider switching back to windows 7:

In windows 8 the only way to create an ad-hoc network is via the command line.

In windows 8, you cannot configure a VPN to redial a dropped connection.

Re: Do people really want to look at multiple windows at once?

#39

Post by dimitar »

vidarh wrote: post #33
dimitar wrote: post #30

I think going back historically, overlapping windows appeared on PCs around the same time as VGA (more powerfull platforms had them earlier). The early apps didn't have so many features (and menus) and often had to work together often so it made sense to have them side by side and not to bother closing them to open them again in a few seconds. Now, it depends on the screen (resolution). Isn't it pointless to maximize…

I maximize even on large screens because I like to remove the clutter for focus more than because I need the space. I don't want to have a chat window or terminal or anything else distracting me when I read or write something, for example.

Sure, my assumption is that usually people want to multitask during most activities. Reasonable I think, most of the time.

Re: Do people really want to look at multiple windows at once?

#40

Post by progrock »

I'm not familiar with Metro.

On small screens, space is a premium, so I can understand the motivation and want for full screen / less chrome.

It's also useful when using the computer on a TV. Ideally you want a lower resolution, or to increase font - sizes, windows controls etc.

On a larger monitor up close, I have no need to maximise the browser window. I get lost in a sea of white most of the time. In fact sometimes I need to resize the window - to make text more readable (fluid layouts - which I ultimately have more control over). If I'm using tabs, the resizing interferes with the other open web pages though. If I flip back to another page, I may need to then resize again - which is awkward. In this case I'm better off using multiple windows rather than tabs. Which I'd prefer if I had better window management.

I think that tabs were really just a hack around crappy window managers. And the real subject here is that of window management.

Yes you can use multiple monitors, but you can't assume that people do, or assume the size of their monitors.

I got so annoyed with crap window management over multiple monitors - that I prefer to use workspaces. I want to be able to use the keyboard to flip between monitors/workspaces, and move windows between monitors/workspaces. Launch windows on particular monitors. Turn external monitors off and on when I want to. Not having to have one monitor devoted to a task bar etc. Not having windows pop up where you don't expect them.

The last time I tried Gnome 3 I had trouble with multiple monitors. I can just about use ARandR under Xfce with an external monitor, but can find multiple workspaces don't work that well with multiple monitors.

I'd have thought that you'd actually be able to come up with something very usable with a little thought and common sense.

Back to having multiple windows. You pretty much need them for dragging and dropping. Which actually is a pretty awkward manoeuvre in itself. Other times having multiple windows on screen at the same time, is useful for things monitors/notifiers. Or when on messenger.

I personally alt-tab lots. But it can some times be jarring. And would be no use if I was wanting to watch something while chatting on IRC.

If I had a CCTV application, and wanted to watch four cameras at the same time. Would you leave that to the application, or the window manager? It seems to me that it makes more sense using a window manager rather than doing it in the application. I mentioned tabs already, and currently this UI is totally inconsistent across web browsers, let alone other applications.

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