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"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

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Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#81

Post by dualogy »

ojbyrne wrote: post #73
jfarmer wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ayn Rand was opposed to the labor theory of value, which is a central tenant of Marxism.

While I'm not a marxist, I think she goes too far in her opposition to this. All of the protagonists are capitalists (mostly with inherited money) and those who actually work to advance the cause of the "great men" - i.e. Eddie Willers - are given short shrift, and little chance to advance. Instead we have great men with inherited fortunes, doing very little actual work, preferring whining about "looters" and in one…

"who actually work to advance the cause of the 'great men' - i.e. Eddie Willers - are given short shrift, and little chance to advance"

That's because he's never advancing much by himself beyond that which he is 'given'. Eddie is definitely an interesting character in the book. Like the 'man of not so great ambition' who still knows that he will, materially and spiritually, be better off by not looting those who made their fortunes exclusively through voluntary exchanges of their own successful products, efforts and work.

Yeah, in the book he lacks their talent but shares their code of value. He's like the character introduced just so that you can't complain 'there's only great men in this book, how unrealistic'.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#82

Post by dualogy »

sridharvembu wrote: post #48

I read this last time 20 years ago as an undergraduate student in India, and I still find it inspiring after all these years. I find it particularly relevant today, when the Federal Reserve and the government are intent on destroying the moral foundation of money. I expand on it at: http://blogs.zoho.com/general/money-as-a-moral-institution

Wow! Using your corporate blog to dispense your opinions on economics (which I share!) is rather 'heroic' in Ayn Rand's sense of the word. I'm not sure I'd do it, but now I wonder why... ;)

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#83

Post by ojbyrne »

dualogy wrote: post #81
ojbyrne wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm not a marxist, I think she goes too far in her opposition to this. All of the protagonists are capitalists (mostly with inherited money) and those who actually work to advance the cause of the "great men" - i.e. Eddie Willers - are given short shrift, and little chance to advance. Instead we have great men with inherited fortunes, doing very little actual work, preferring whining about "looters" and in one…

"who actually work to advance the cause of the 'great men' - i.e. Eddie Willers - are given short shrift, and little chance to advance" That's because he's never advancing much by himself beyond that which he is 'given'. Eddie is definitely an interesting character in the book. Like the 'man of not so great ambition' who still knows that he will, materially and spiritually, be better off by not looting those who made…

How does he "lack their talent?" I see little talent on display. Though perhaps that's Rand's poor writing ability - not much is ever described to the reader, she just says "talented" or "great" about her protagonists, and expects us to accept it.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#84

Post by ojbyrne »

unalone wrote: post #75
ojbyrne wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just happening to be reading the book at the time. There's so many pathetic pieces of prose. "He lighted his cigarette." Just to chime in on all the other stuff, Francisco inherited all his wealth, and spent his life quite literally destroying it (rather than give some of it up to the "looters"). I can't think of a better allegory for crony capitalism.

To defend Rand a little - I do like her quite a lot - Francisco's idea is that by doing so he's eliminating the "looters" from society. It's entirely fantasy, but it's very fun fantasy.

My point is that he inherited his wealth. And pissed it away. Objectively that's what happens.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#85

Post by mseebach »

maxharris wrote: post #20
jacoblyles wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ayn Rand often overstates her case for the sake of art (her evil characters, for example, are mostly shallow caricatures). I find that people who don't share her views often mock her works and call her "ridiculous" because she treats some ideas that they hold completely without nuance or sympathy. I can see why they do this, but I think Ayn's detractors overstate their case. She is valuable because she is the only ma…

"but absolute truth shall ever elude humans in this complex world." Why? Do you think a grand unified field theory is impossible? Do you think that quantum mechanics is the final word in physics? Do you suppose that that truth is knowable to some hypothetical race of aliens? (You specifically say that humans can't attain any absolute truth.) Or do you simply think that some truths are unknowable, such as distant hist…

As I understand it, "absolute truth" refers to when all actors in all interactions know and understand everything relevant to their interactions - and that will obtain the theoretical optimal equilibrium.

Problem is, to know everything relevant, you must know everything - otherwise, how do you know that what you don't know isn't relevant? Since this is obviously not possible, you strive for the best approximation. Sovjet-style communism attempted to set up a political system to handle all this knowledge, and failed miserably. Free market capitalism, with free price formation and supply and demand seems to be an orders-of-magnitude better approximation.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#86

Post by niv »

THE STRENGTH OF THE STRONG by Jack London http://www.trussel.com/prehist/strength.htm Basically, the story tells that a tribe figured out that the basic "law" was that no man should use his strength to abuse others, so whenever one would abuse his strength, the others would kill him as to not weaken the tribe. Much later in the story, they figured out that money (among other things) also was a strength that you can use to abuse others.

This is why (more or less) I don't agree with Ayn

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#87

Post by dualogy »

ojbyrne wrote: post #83
dualogy wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"who actually work to advance the cause of the 'great men' - i.e. Eddie Willers - are given short shrift, and little chance to advance" That's because he's never advancing much by himself beyond that which he is 'given'. Eddie is definitely an interesting character in the book. Like the 'man of not so great ambition' who still knows that he will, materially and spiritually, be better off by not looting those who made…

How does he "lack their talent?" I see little talent on display. Though perhaps that's Rand's poor writing ability - not much is ever described to the reader, she just says "talented" or "great" about her protagonists, and expects us to accept it.

It's a work of fiction, by the way. But each of the characters has their own sets of talents and strengths and they are described rather than asserted throughout the book.

The question of whether these descriptions are 'true' is quite pointless in an entirely fictional setting.

> not much is ever described to the reader > she just says "talented" or "great" about > her protagonists

It's only fair to say you failed to sum up these 1000 pages accurately.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#88

Post by colins_pride »

MaysonL wrote: post #79
dpatru wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A theme in Atlas Shrugged is that wealth properly belongs to the people who make it. This includes the right to give it away or pass it to one's family. The fact that inherited wealth may ruin an heir who is not worthy of it does not entitle others to take the wealth by force, contrary to the will of the true owner. Rand's argument does not justify the inheritance tax; it's a warning to the wealthy.

Well - I would argue that anyone inheriting wealth should pay tax on that inheritance, just like on any other income. Wealth is created as much, if not more, by society as by the owner.

You can say that the owner would not have been able to create the wealth without the system. And if you've seen enough of the world, you know that this is fair. But when the wealth is taken from the owner, it does not go to the system. It goes to the politicians, who redistribute it to other individuals who did not create the wealth. That's the rub.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#89

Post by unalone »

ojbyrne wrote: post #84
unalone wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To defend Rand a little - I do like her quite a lot - Francisco's idea is that by doing so he's eliminating the "looters" from society. It's entirely fantasy, but it's very fun fantasy.

My point is that he inherited his wealth. And pissed it away. Objectively that's what happens.

Have you read through the book? Because that's discussed in the book. Rand explains the rationale behind that in the final leg of the novel.
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