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Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

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Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#321

Post by sakopov »

yareally wrote: post #288
sakopov wrote: post #200

I was born in Russia and used the metric system until i moved to the US. Imperial system is so archaic it's amusing to see a developed nation use it. A few centuries ago Russians used to measure weight in "handfuls" and short distances in "elbows." (scratch that, it's "cubits") When only a fraction of the population had any sort of education, it was easier for everyone to understand an anatomical measurement. Eh, som…

Sadly, we (US Citizens) all learn the Metric system starting in at least 7th grade (was for me at least back 15 some years ago). We continue to use it through High School for courses such as Chemistry and Physics as well as University studies. However, many of those that are not interested in going into a Science field tend to discount the Metric System in the United States as nothing more than a "means to an end" in…

You're absolutely right. Technical people would most likely embrace the switch. Everyone else will brush it off. I find that Americans are typically very cautious of any kind of change. Especially baby boomers. Let alone a change that is "imposed" by the rest of the world. That isn't going to fly here. We don't do things in the same way the rest of the world does them. That's just our mentality. Imagine a football field marked with metric units. Man, I just cringed a little bit. :)

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#323

Post by jacquesm »

blhack wrote: post #293
jacquesm wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a typical case of theory and practice. Yes, in theory the US is a country that supports metric. In practice, go and ask anybody in the country outside of the military for the following: - An M10 bolt - a 16mm wrench to drive it with - a 3 meter long 50 mm od pvc drainpipe - a tape-measure that measures only in metric - a highway sign that is posted in km And so on. See how many people can point you to any of t…

Have you ever been inside of a hardware store? Every hardware store I've ever been to has a section for metric. Our lab, for instance, keeps a supply of bolts, and as far as I remember /only/ has metric. Also every socket set I've ever used has a metric and standard set. Why would you care about road signs? And why would you care about a tape measure that is /only/ in metric? The second one seems kindof silly. The on…

> Have you ever been inside of a hardware store?

I believe so. Maybe a couple of times. Or maybe I practically lived in one for a couple of years.

Would this do for you?

http://pics.ww.com/v/jacques/trips/jansvisit/?g2_page=6

Yes, there is a section for metric in the hardware store.

It's the bit at the back with about 1/2 the sizes missing and only the stuff that you don't need in stock. I've had a machine shop in Canada (which officially had metric) and it was quite hard to get metric stuff. So hard that in the end we standardized on Imperial. In the US it was way worse.

Socket sets have standard and metric. Metric mostly for working on Japanese or European cars. But the most tools 'at hand' will be imperial. Maybe your experience is different but I've had plenty of bolts on my Japanese car wrecked by a shop putting imperial tools on them and plowing ahead. Works especially good if you use airtools, instant roundness.

You care about road signs because they're a sign that you really are standardizing. If your road signs are still in Miles then you're not a 'metric' country.

And you care about a tape measure only in metric because that's all you use in a metric country.

Machine tools - of which I owned a small fortune worth of - have things called morse tapers for the various tool bits. Morse tapers are adapters that allow you to quickly switch bits, most of the tooling that fits them is in Imperial. Collets, the elements that hold tooling for a mill or a lathe are all in imperial sizes. Unless you order from a very large catalogue it is very difficult to get mills in metric, but that is much more frustrating is that it can even be hard to source drills in metric.

Machining is done to thousands of an inch in the US. The rest of the world uses 1/100th of a mm for both turning and milling, and a series of fittings for more precise work.

The good news is that the bigger bearing companies all do carry metric if you need it. And if they don't have it in stock it 's usually only a day away.

Unless you've actually tried to design a somewhat complex chunk of machinery you might be given the impression that 'metric is easy'. In practice stuff like shafts, gears, supports and so on are all easier to source in Imperial than in Metric both in the US and in Canada too.

You want to order in Imperial, just one moment while I get your order form the warehouse out back. You want to order in Metric. That's perfectly fine, we're a metric country after all. Would it suit you to pick your order up in early march, possibly the middle of april before it is complete?

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#324

Post by stephen_g »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #104

There's a couple of things you'd want to consider converting to metric: long distances, short distances/dimensions, volumes, weights, and temperature come to mind. Long distances: swap out a bunch of highway signs, consider that 60mph (a mile a minute) ~= 100km/h, not too hard on people but a lot of signage needs to change. Feasible. Volumes: people are used enough to 2-liter bottles of soda, expect the 3.78 liter mi…

Anyone in a country that uses the celsius scale knows that the temperature argument is rubbish... It's totally and completely what you're used to. I doubt people really think of temperature in more than about eight or ten increments anyway (bloody freezing, cold, pleasant, etc.) so having a range of forty or fifty integers really gives you more than enough precision.

I suppose it doesn't really matter what people use to express the temperature in common use, but having a unified scale across ambient temperature, cooking, science (1K = 1°C), manufacturing, etc. that people in almost every other country uses really does make sense, especially when the conversion is so annoying.

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#325

Post by SoftwareMaven »

sb wrote: post #302
krschultz wrote: post #145

Most of the comments in this thread are talking about the units for personal height, weight, local road signs or for the weather forecast. Those are by far the least important things to be worried about. All of those things are local and there is no carrying cost for them. There would be a cost to change all those signs and forecasts - for no real gain. However, dimensions of physical goods are a constant recurring c…

I agree that it is all about cost, however this is far more "local" to many US citizens than they might imagine. For example, most of the coke bottles outside of the US come in half litres, while in the US they come in 20 fluid ounces (this is certainly true for many other products, too.) Hence, companies that make coke filling machines must accommodate the imperial system on top of the metric system, as well. Given…

That would probably work if the US economy wasn't so big. In reality, it isn't until you get to niche products that it will be possible (and ay have happened); anything as mainstream as a Coke bottle will be fine in imperial.

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#326

Post by Kylekramer »

beagle3 wrote: post #319
Kylekramer wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty weak argument for Celsius. Why should people care that the boiling and freezing points are simple? That is almost irrelevant for the most common uses of temperature reporting. People care about the ambient outside temperature (which Fahrenheit seems optimized for), not the effect it has on the state of one particular compound.

Fahrenheit is not really optimized for that either. It's basically optimized for "still positive in the coldest days in Denamrk some 200 years ago, and less than 100 in the warmest days". (Seriously) If you live in e.g. San Diego, it goes from ~60 to ~90. If you live in NYC, it goes from ~25 to ~100. That's not more optimized than Celsius, which goes from ~15 to ~30 and ~-4 to ~35 respectively. However, when in NYC,…

Here is the thing: Created for still positive for the coldest days in Denmark and under 100 for the warmest is optimizing for ambient outdoor temperature. And much more human readable than heating one liter of water etc. I am not saying it is perfect, but I don't see why it shouldn't continue to be used as it is currently: F for weather reports and such while using C/K for more scientific pursuits.

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#327

Post by jlgreco »

tedunangst wrote: post #272
masklinn wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is exactly the problem with the imperial system. You have multiple units for the same thing, and when they are multiples of each other, it is in base 12. That's when you're lucky, can also be 3 (yard to feet), 22 (chain to yard), 10 (furlong to chain), 8 (miles to furlong, and that's why a mile is 5280 feet), 5 (gill to fluid ounce), 4 (acres to rod, gallons to quarts), 14 (stones to pounds) and probably every…

Imagine if we measured time using units of varying multiples. Every time a friend tells me "see you in two weeks", I'm like really? 2 times 7 times 24 times 60? Fucking asshole, do I look like a calculator?

Were time conversions as common or necessary as other unit conversions, you can bet your ass decimal time would have more takers.

Even so, varying units does restrict how we can express time. Even if someone tells you something as simple as "half a week", you have to ask for clarification. And while "a week from now" translates to a date, forget about "a month from now." That could mean half a dozen different things.

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#328

Post by redial »

smackfu wrote: post #193

While we are at it, why not standardize: * date and time formats * language * time zones * currency Seems about as easy and has the same kind of benefits.

It seems to me that time zones are standard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_time

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#329

Post by VLM »

jacquesm wrote: post #259
tokenadult wrote: post #198

From the petitions.whitehouse.gov petition kindly submitted for comment here: "The United States is one of the few countries left in the world who still have not converted to using the Metric System as a standardized system of measurement. Instead of going along with what the rest of the world uses, we stubbornly still adhere to using the imprecise Imperial Unit - despite the fact that practically every other country…

That's a typical case of theory and practice. Yes, in theory the US is a country that supports metric. In practice, go and ask anybody in the country outside of the military for the following: - An M10 bolt - a 16mm wrench to drive it with - a 3 meter long 50 mm od pvc drainpipe - a tape-measure that measures only in metric - a highway sign that is posted in km And so on. See how many people can point you to any of t…

Does anyone else on HN work on their own car? My ancient unbreakable domestic mfgr '97 GM car is all metric. Right off the top of my head the oil drain plug is a M12-1.75 bolt. I just replaced the battery two weeks ago, all metric (I think they were M10 bolts? I was in a huge hurry). Seemingly everything on my GM car is metric, and it was built 15 years ago, I can only imagine how metric everything in auto-land is now.

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#330

Post by jacquesm »

brudgers wrote: post #300
jacquesm wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a typical case of theory and practice. Yes, in theory the US is a country that supports metric. In practice, go and ask anybody in the country outside of the military for the following: - An M10 bolt - a 16mm wrench to drive it with - a 3 meter long 50 mm od pvc drainpipe - a tape-measure that measures only in metric - a highway sign that is posted in km And so on. See how many people can point you to any of t…

This is a bunch of fictions. Americans with wrenches tend to have both SAE and metric sizes. The thread pitches of metric bolts differs from SAE standards, and drain pipes are sized on inside diameter not outside because ID is relevant to capacity. Tape measures have standard units because they're standard where tape measures are used - in construction. Where it makes sense, metric is common, e.g. soft drink bottles.

> This is a bunch of fictions.

Not really, those are all pretty practical examples. I've dealt with each and every one of those.

> Americans with wrenches tend to have both SAE and metric sizes.

The metric ones will be brand new if they have them, the imperial ones will be well worn.

> The thread pitches of metric bolts differs from SAE standards

Indeed they do. In the EU Ford vehicles are all metric unless they were private imports from the USA. I'm not sure what the situation is today but when I still lived in Canada the ford we had had all imperial sizes bolts as far as they were exposed.

> Tape measures have standard units because they're standard where tape measures are used - in construction.

Yes, and as long as you don't change that that's they way it will stay. The English drive on the left because they do. But that doesn't mean they can say that they've adopted driving on the right side of the road because they could. They haven't. So construction is almost entirely in Imperial.

In a metric country, metric is used everywhere, because it makes sense.

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