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C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

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Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#51

Post by MortenK »

tkellogg wrote: post #34
meaty wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the end of older generation COM C++ stuff that is being pushed to .net (server 2k appears to have finally bit the dust in corporates) and reasonable maturity of WCF.

> reasonable maturity of WCF Being a user of WCF, I'm sorry to say, it's terrible. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking WCF is fit for production. This goes for pretty much the whole C#/.NET ecosystem. The Microsoft tools are severely lacking in good design principles and the open source tools are amazing and life changing but don't have the mindshare to be revolutionary. This is mostly just a fact of Microsoft be…

The entirery of the centralized European visa, asylum and police systems runs on WCF and C#. These systems are used constantly every day by a large part, if not the majority of European embassies, consulates, immigration ministries, foreign ministries and police departments. Not ready for production?

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#52

Post by air »

rprasad wrote: post #40
meaty wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just use java and benefit from mature libraries and frameworks, tooling and package management that isn't a piece of shit. Your insurance is the openjdk then rather than a thinly veiled promise not to sue from Microsoft.

Stop spreading FUD. That "thinly veiled promise not to sue" is backed by the full force of a legally binding promise recognized by the combined weight of the US and Euro legal systems. Microsoft is, by centuries of established law and court decisions, precluded from suing someone from using C# through Mono or any other API or framework. Moreover, using Java is now riskier than using C#, as Oracle has changed the lice…

The community promise for C# applies only to the ECMA 334 which is stuck in c# 2.0 from 2006 [1][2].

Seems to me that nothing prevents Microsoft from suing people implementing features found in c# 3-5.

[1] http://blogs.technet.com/b/port25/archive/2009/07/06/the-ecm...

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_Sharp_%28programming_language...

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#53

Post by lmm »

rprasad wrote: post #40
meaty wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just use java and benefit from mature libraries and frameworks, tooling and package management that isn't a piece of shit. Your insurance is the openjdk then rather than a thinly veiled promise not to sue from Microsoft.

Stop spreading FUD. That "thinly veiled promise not to sue" is backed by the full force of a legally binding promise recognized by the combined weight of the US and Euro legal systems. Microsoft is, by centuries of established law and court decisions, precluded from suing someone from using C# through Mono or any other API or framework. Moreover, using Java is now riskier than using C#, as Oracle has changed the lice…

>That "thinly veiled promise not to sue" is backed by the full force of a legally binding promise recognized by the combined weight of the US and Euro legal systems.

Have you got a source for that? AIUI under UK law the concept of promissory estoppel only exists in the context of an agreement in which the other party has received consideration. Not having paid MS anything, I don't see how that can apply here.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#55

Post by meaty »

MortenK wrote: post #51
tkellogg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> reasonable maturity of WCF Being a user of WCF, I'm sorry to say, it's terrible. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking WCF is fit for production. This goes for pretty much the whole C#/.NET ecosystem. The Microsoft tools are severely lacking in good design principles and the open source tools are amazing and life changing but don't have the mindshare to be revolutionary. This is mostly just a fact of Microsoft be…

The entirery of the centralized European visa, asylum and police systems runs on WCF and C#. These systems are used constantly every day by a large part, if not the majority of European embassies, consulates, immigration ministries, foreign ministries and police departments. Not ready for production?

Yes our entire financial platform depends on WCF but the OP is right - its not reliable. We've had unpredictable latency, crashes, hideous bugs and configuration hell.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#56

Post by Locke1689 »

nahname wrote: post #32
misnome wrote: post #4

I recently started using C#, having not programmed for windows in years, and have to admit I'm greatly impressed by it. It really feels modern, well designed, and very flexible and powerful, in too many ways to list. Unfortunately, I'm finding the .NET libraries that I'm using not quite so well designed - Working with windows forms specifically. Fortunately, a lot of the third party libraries seem pretty well designe…

C# truly is one of the diamonds in the Microsoft software dirt heap. It is unfortunate that there isn't something Microsoft sanctioned like UIKit for dotnet. However, I think ReactiveUI ( http://www.reactiveui.net/ ) is quite close and reasonable popular. This does lead into the other serious detriment for dotnet, open source. There is very little going on there because the majority of the community doesn't actively…

FYI, C# is not an MSR project.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#57

Post by tinco »

MortenK wrote: post #51
tkellogg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> reasonable maturity of WCF Being a user of WCF, I'm sorry to say, it's terrible. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking WCF is fit for production. This goes for pretty much the whole C#/.NET ecosystem. The Microsoft tools are severely lacking in good design principles and the open source tools are amazing and life changing but don't have the mindshare to be revolutionary. This is mostly just a fact of Microsoft be…

The entirery of the centralized European visa, asylum and police systems runs on WCF and C#. These systems are used constantly every day by a large part, if not the majority of European embassies, consulates, immigration ministries, foreign ministries and police departments. Not ready for production?

That something is used in production does not mean it is fit for production.

Do you have any sources that confirm that this system is in fact reliable?

That all of Europes police departments, foreign ministries and embassies use this for international communication puts it at the scale of a smallish web application.

The people that use these systems come from a system where data like this is requested by telephone and supplied per fax. If WCF were slow and unreliable they'd probably still take it for granted, everything beating the old way of doing stuff.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#58

Post by bengotow »

I don't understand how searches for '{language} tutorial' is a better metric than TIOBEs. The results of a metric like that would likely under-represents Objective-C in particular, because Objective-C classes are namespaced with the NS prefix and don't require additional search terms. For example, to find code for doing string reversal in C#, I'd need to search for 'C# String Reversal Tutorial' but for Objective-C, I could just search for 'Reverse NSString'.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#59

Post by tinco »

jebblue wrote: post #41
rprasad wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop spreading FUD. That "thinly veiled promise not to sue" is backed by the full force of a legally binding promise recognized by the combined weight of the US and Euro legal systems. Microsoft is, by centuries of established law and court decisions, precluded from suing someone from using C# through Mono or any other API or framework. Moreover, using Java is now riskier than using C#, as Oracle has changed the lice…

>> Microsoft is, by centuries of established law and court decisions, precluded from suing someone from using C# through Mono or any other API or framework. Then why did they feel compelled to "promise" not to sue: http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/67537.html If you're correct then all they needed to do is point to your statement that no court will allow them to sue.

That precise promise is why they are precluded from suing.

Re: C# is the language of the year, Python of the decade

#60

Post by tinco »

just2n wrote: post #37

I don't think I can agree that "{{language}} tutorial" as a measure of "growth" is valid. When I am looking to learn a language, I don't Google for tutorials because you end up with mostly worthless information and maybe a single result that has any value -- and 9 times of 10 that result is on the website of the language, so my query becomes "{{language}}". Further, as I'm learning a language, I'm more likely to Goog…

You missed out on a statistics lecture.

It does not matter whether you or anyone else in particular searches for "{language} tutorial" as long as there is a significant amount of people who do, and that amount of people is roughly the same percentage for every language to get an accurate estimate of language popularity.

And for estimating popularity growth the percentage does not even have to be the same across languages.

For these estimates to work the only thing you need is something that clearly identifies user interaction with that computer language. The internet is big enough to allow this to work for even very small percentages.

That said, I don't agree with "{{language}} tutorial" as a measure of language learning popularity. This is because a lot of the growth from the Java programming world comes from formal schooling. Almost every college or university teaches Java, it could be that the percentage of people learning Java through tutorial is significantly less than other languages.

edit: downvoted because I am very wrong for a reason stated in that nice comment below >_>

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