"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand • Hacker News Board

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#41

Post by radu_floricica » Sun, Mar 01, 2009, 10:26 PM UTC

old-gregg wrote: post #28

radu_floricica wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are on Hacker News, aren't we? Most people here value the material world more then the spiritual world. This doesn't mean they completely ignore the latter, of course. But between discussing spirituality and creating something, I'd say most would choose creating. As for making money, this is how our success is measured. Yes, you can do things for your soul, of for your friends, or for your family or for the societ…

We are on Hacker News, aren't we? ... [skipped] ... As for making money, this is how our success is measured. No it is not. I love HN, but most people here accept the distorted definition of a hacker. Hacker culture had nothing to do with money, only lately, and PG is partially guilty of this, "hacker" started to associate with "21 year old internet millionaire" in the minds of many.

I have been a bit imprecise in my comment. Yes, hacker and entrepreneur are different concepts. It's just that here there is a much greater density of people who are both then anywhere I know. Hacker culture is old, and I respect it. One of my dreams in high school has been to write open source software. But still, here you are more likely to find hackers interested in a startup then in OS. This is what my comment was about - this is a place I love _because_ it's one of the few where smart people openly want to make money (in the randian sense). And to see the highest modded comment praising spirituality over materialism - I really didn't like it.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#42

Post by captainobvious » Sun, Mar 01, 2009, 10:28 PM UTC

maxharris wrote: post #14

unalone wrote: post #2

This is one of my favorite speeches from that book. It doesn't make false assumptions like many of the other speeches and plots do - it stays focused on debunking the idea of money as bad, and as such while a lot of the rest of the book seems slightly ridiculous, this speech remains quite powerful.

What about the rest of the book seems ridiculous to you? The first time I read it, I thought that everything in Atlas Shrugged was perfect. Even with repeated readings, I never once thought anything was ridiculous. Be specific in your answer.

Externalities ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality ), positive or negative, don't seem to get much consideration throughout.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#43

Post by thaumaturgy » Sun, Mar 01, 2009, 10:31 PM UTC

olavk wrote: post #3

If this is supposed to be a rebuttal to the quote from the new testament, then it's a major strawman. The quote from Timothy 6:10 is "the love of money is the root of all evil." (my italics)

There is nothing inherently wrong with the love of money, morally or otherwise. If you were to make an argument against money, perhaps the best you could do would be to criticize what a person _chooses to do_ with money. Do they choose to impoverish others, or do they choose to move society forward?

Besides, I do not think that religion has a pedestal to stand upon when criticizing the love of money. What clothes does the pope wear? Are cathedrals built for free by those who want them, and then donated to their community? Are statues, and relics, and other icons made and distributed for free?

There are very few religious centers -- either individual or geographical -- that do not bundle themselves up in the comforts of wealth.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#44

Post by andreyf » Sun, Mar 01, 2009, 10:34 PM UTC

jacoblyles wrote: post #18

thras wrote: post #9

Wow. Are people impressed by that article because of the sonorous prose? Because the content definitely isn't impressive. Rand's first mistake is not realizing that the love of money quote speaks to individuals and not to societies. An individual who loves the material world more than the spiritual world (not god necessarily, maybe just the world inside his own head), is pitiable. The saddest thing I've ever heard wa…

There is some cleverness in there, and, I believe, some truth. Here is a quote that I liked: "Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth--the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his…

It would not be so sad if he said that his goal was producing something of value, which often results in making money.

If one's goal is to maximize the value humanity creates, she should probably become an elementary school teacher. If one's goal is to make money, she should get an MBA or financial degree.

The former, to me, is significantly nobler.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#45

Post by allocativeeffic » Sun, Mar 01, 2009, 10:42 PM UTC

andreyf wrote: post #44

jacoblyles wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some cleverness in there, and, I believe, some truth. Here is a quote that I liked: "Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth--the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his…

It would not be so sad if he said that his goal was producing something of value, which often results in making money. If one's goal is to maximize the value humanity creates, she should probably become an elementary school teacher. If one's goal is to make money, she should get an MBA or financial degree. The former, to me, is significantly nobler.

Care to back that up?

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#46

Post by jacoblyles » Sun, Mar 01, 2009, 10:44 PM UTC

andreyf wrote: post #44

jacoblyles wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some cleverness in there, and, I believe, some truth. Here is a quote that I liked: "Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth--the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his…

It would not be so sad if he said that his goal was producing something of value, which often results in making money. If one's goal is to maximize the value humanity creates, she should probably become an elementary school teacher. If one's goal is to make money, she should get an MBA or financial degree. The former, to me, is significantly nobler.

It is less sexy and less popular, but the engineer that invents a more efficient manufacturing or distribution process that slightly reduces the resources used in products enjoyed by millions of people, perhaps becoming rich in the process, does far more good for the world than an elementary school teacher. Sam Walton did more good for humanity than any thousand average teachers combined.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#47

Post by dk » Sun, Mar 01, 2009, 10:52 PM UTC

thras wrote: post #9

Wow. Are people impressed by that article because of the sonorous prose? Because the content definitely isn't impressive. Rand's first mistake is not realizing that the love of money quote speaks to individuals and not to societies. An individual who loves the material world more than the spiritual world (not god necessarily, maybe just the world inside his own head), is pitiable. The saddest thing I've ever heard wa…

Where do you (and others) get the idea that Rand is responding to the Bible? She's speaking to/of those who say that money is evil, love of money is evil, and related thoughts. This seems clear from the very first sentence of the speech: "So you think that money is the root of all evil?" Later, "But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak?", "Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil?", etc.

I would challenge you to cite the part of the speech or anything else Rand ever wrote arguing that money should be the most important thing in one's life. The statement "Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit," indicates what's more explicit elsewhere in the book, namely Rand's conviction that the material and (secular) spiritual are both of great importance in life and that neither trumps the other. Rather, one should seek to integrate them.

Having read Rand extensively when I was younger, I can't imagine she'd consider your friend's approach to life, as described, anything but sad as well.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#48

Post by sridharvembu » Sun, Mar 01, 2009, 10:54 PM UTC

I read this last time 20 years ago as an undergraduate student in India, and I still find it inspiring after all these years.

I find it particularly relevant today, when the Federal Reserve and the government are intent on destroying the moral foundation of money. I expand on it at: http://blogs.zoho.com/general/money-as-a-moral-institution

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#49

Post by andreyf » Sun, Mar 01, 2009, 10:55 PM UTC

jacoblyles wrote: post #46

andreyf wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would not be so sad if he said that his goal was producing something of value, which often results in making money. If one's goal is to maximize the value humanity creates, she should probably become an elementary school teacher. If one's goal is to make money, she should get an MBA or financial degree. The former, to me, is significantly nobler.

It is less sexy and less popular, but the engineer that invents a more efficient manufacturing or distribution process that slightly reduces the resources used in products enjoyed by millions of people, perhaps becoming rich in the process, does far more good for the world than an elementary school teacher. Sam Walton did more good for humanity than any thousand average teachers combined.

Had Sam Walton been a teacher, teaching thousands of children throughout his life, what are the chances he would have inspired some them to be great engineers?

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#50

Post by MaysonL » Sun, Mar 01, 2009, 10:56 PM UTC

jacoblyles wrote: post #18

thras wrote: post #9

Wow. Are people impressed by that article because of the sonorous prose? Because the content definitely isn't impressive. Rand's first mistake is not realizing that the love of money quote speaks to individuals and not to societies. An individual who loves the material world more than the spiritual world (not god necessarily, maybe just the world inside his own head), is pitiable. The saddest thing I've ever heard wa…

There is some cleverness in there, and, I believe, some truth. Here is a quote that I liked: "Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth--the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his…

Best argument for the inheritance tax I've seen lately.