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"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

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Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#31

Post by [deleted] »

jacoblyles wrote: post #27
abstractbill wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people here value the material world more then the spiritual world ... between discussing spirituality and creating something, I'd say most would choose creating. The urge to create things is very spiritual for me, just fwiw. It doesn't have to be material things either - these days it's mostly software and occasionally robots, and in the past it's been mathematics and music. But I must create things - it's a fu…

I wish that were me. I try to create because I admire creators. However, the drive to create is not innate to my personality. Rather, it is a struggle. Fortunately, I am learning to hack my personality to drive myself to do what I want. For example, I surround myself with creative people and I work on team projects where a sense of duty will drive me to do good work. But it is hard, and I must trick myself to do what…

[deleted]

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#32

Post by maxharris »

jacoblyles wrote: post #29
maxharris wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, the world is complicated. But how does that make an "absolutist" moral system impossible? I think that with regard to morality (as it applies to humans, on earth), absolute truths and rules are not only possible to know (and make), but necessary. Without this, human actions are no longer guided by reason, and that is a very bad situation.

Discuss morality with intelligent people, and study evolutionary psychology, and it will not take you long to realize that every moral system has some edge cases where obeying it will lead to stomach-turning results. Our moral intuitions are lumpy, inconsistent, and contradictory. This is to be expected because we were designed by blind evolution, and not by any sort of logical process. Ethical systems serve as great…

What about Objectivism leads to "stomach-turning results"?

(Remember, I don't think we shouldn't worry about what the "average person feels is right"; we should worry about what is actually right.)

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#33

Post by pg »

old-gregg wrote: post #28
radu_floricica wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are on Hacker News, aren't we? Most people here value the material world more then the spiritual world. This doesn't mean they completely ignore the latter, of course. But between discussing spirituality and creating something, I'd say most would choose creating. As for making money, this is how our success is measured. Yes, you can do things for your soul, of for your friends, or for your family or for the societ…

We are on Hacker News, aren't we? ... [skipped] ... As for making money, this is how our success is measured. No it is not. I love HN, but most people here accept the distorted definition of a hacker. Hacker culture had nothing to do with money, only lately, and PG is partially guilty of this, "hacker" started to associate with "21 year old internet millionaire" in the minds of many.

PG is partially guilty of this

But I've been very explicit about this question:

"Great programmers are sometimes said to be indifferent to money. This isn't quite true. It is true that all they really care about is doing interesting work. But if you make enough money, you get to work on whatever you want, and for that reason hackers are attracted by the idea of making really large amounts of money. But as long as they still have to show up for work every day, they care more about what they do there than how much they get paid for it."

(http://www.paulgraham.com/gh.html)

"So no, there's nothing particularly grand about making money. That's not what makes startups worth the trouble. What's important about startups is the speed. By compressing the dull but necessary task of making a living into the smallest possible time, you show respect for life, and there is something grand about that."

(http://www.paulgraham.com/startuplessons.html)

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#34

Post by donniefitz2 »

jacoblyles wrote: post #15
maxharris wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the rest of the book seems ridiculous to you? The first time I read it, I thought that everything in Atlas Shrugged was perfect. Even with repeated readings, I never once thought anything was ridiculous. Be specific in your answer.

Ayn Rand often overstates her case for the sake of art (her evil characters, for example, are mostly shallow caricatures). I find that people who don't share her views often mock her works and call her "ridiculous" because she treats some ideas that they hold completely without nuance or sympathy. I can see why they do this, but I think Ayn's detractors overstate their case. She is valuable because she is the only ma…

I think you're right about the whole of her philosophy. I think she has a firm grasp of epistemology, but fails to lay out a well reasoned metaphysical and ethical philosophy.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#35

Post by jacoblyles »

maxharris wrote: post #32
jacoblyles wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discuss morality with intelligent people, and study evolutionary psychology, and it will not take you long to realize that every moral system has some edge cases where obeying it will lead to stomach-turning results. Our moral intuitions are lumpy, inconsistent, and contradictory. This is to be expected because we were designed by blind evolution, and not by any sort of logical process. Ethical systems serve as great…

What about Objectivism leads to "stomach-turning results"? (Remember, I don't think we shouldn't worry about what the "average person feels is right"; we should worry about what is actually right.)

Talk to more people that disagree with you, I'm sure you can find someone that can present you with an objectivist-flavored ethical dilemma.

Also, you should examine your axioms. There are many self-consistent moral systems starting with different axioms that produce different results. None of these systems is better than the others. Rather, each of these axioms represent something that humans value. They produce contradictory results, but this is not unexpected for reasons previously stated.

For what it's worth, I bought pretty much everything Rand ever wrote and quite a few things by Peikoff. I used to hand out copies of Anthem to friends. It was ideas such as I stated above that lead me away from objectivism. Roughly, I have a different idea of what kind of a beast a human is, and what kind of structure morality is.

Also, I think what the average person feels is right is very pertinent to the discussion of ethics. Attempts to find an objective standard of moral value beyond what humans actually value are usually flimsy and involve a lot of purposeful ignoring of flaws.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#36

Post by metaguri »

old-gregg wrote: post #28
radu_floricica wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are on Hacker News, aren't we? Most people here value the material world more then the spiritual world. This doesn't mean they completely ignore the latter, of course. But between discussing spirituality and creating something, I'd say most would choose creating. As for making money, this is how our success is measured. Yes, you can do things for your soul, of for your friends, or for your family or for the societ…

We are on Hacker News, aren't we? ... [skipped] ... As for making money, this is how our success is measured. No it is not. I love HN, but most people here accept the distorted definition of a hacker. Hacker culture had nothing to do with money, only lately, and PG is partially guilty of this, "hacker" started to associate with "21 year old internet millionaire" in the minds of many.

I don't think PG is responsible for this any more than the rise of the tech sector (and he defended himself quite sufficiently in his reply). When a new industrial sector emerges, people will get rich, and, well... welcome to the information age.

I think that hackers, however, have an appreciation for the system. Hackers want to learn about complex systems work, but they have a profound respect for those complex systems. Thus, they're not engaged in the business of getting rich no matter what the cost to others.

All the people I know who only want to get rich end up in jobs that promise that. But they are all jobs that reek of unsustainability, like wall street traders and dot-com-type startups with a lot of hype and no business model or valuable contribution to society. These people are selfish and as we're seeing (and have seen during a thousand years of business cycles) their money is gone as quickly as it came.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#37

Post by thaumaturgy »

thras wrote: post #9

Wow. Are people impressed by that article because of the sonorous prose? Because the content definitely isn't impressive. Rand's first mistake is not realizing that the love of money quote speaks to individuals and not to societies. An individual who loves the material world more than the spiritual world (not god necessarily, maybe just the world inside his own head), is pitiable. The saddest thing I've ever heard wa…

| An individual who loves the material world more than the spiritual world (not god necessarily, maybe just the world inside his own head), is pitiable.

Then pity me, though I wish you wouldn't. I do not find that I can believe in any world other than the material world, at least enough to sacrifice my efforts in this world.

If I am going to make a difference, I want to make a difference in the material world, not a spiritual one. If I am going to become wealthy, I want to do so in the material world. If I am going to produce art, I would do so in the material world.

Any spirituality that I do have, exists in the material world. I work in this world, I trade in this world, I appreciate in this world, I love in this world.

So what's so wrong with that?

And if my goals in this world demand that I create money, and if I pursue that goal aggressively, why would you pity me?

Your friend wants able means. Even if he doesn't know now what he would do with those means, it is enough for him to know that he wants them. He is already leagues ahead of the aimless majority that do not know at all what they want. If he wants money, then he should pursue that, and once he has it, he can decide what to do with it ... but at least he will have pursued and attained a goal, which is a claim shared by too few.

I think your pity is misplaced.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#38

Post by vixen99 »

thras wrote: post #9

Wow. Are people impressed by that article because of the sonorous prose? Because the content definitely isn't impressive. Rand's first mistake is not realizing that the love of money quote speaks to individuals and not to societies. An individual who loves the material world more than the spiritual world (not god necessarily, maybe just the world inside his own head), is pitiable. The saddest thing I've ever heard wa…

Bernard Shaw's dictum may seem a little trite but it's true nonetheless "Money is the most important thing in the world until you have enough of it". Yes! - 'enough' begs a slew of questions.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#39

Post by davidw »

pg wrote: post #33
old-gregg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are on Hacker News, aren't we? ... [skipped] ... As for making money, this is how our success is measured. No it is not. I love HN, but most people here accept the distorted definition of a hacker. Hacker culture had nothing to do with money, only lately, and PG is partially guilty of this, "hacker" started to associate with "21 year old internet millionaire" in the minds of many.

PG is partially guilty of this But I've been very explicit about this question: "Great programmers are sometimes said to be indifferent to money. This isn't quite true. It is true that all they really care about is doing interesting work. But if you make enough money, you get to work on whatever you want, and for that reason hackers are attracted by the idea of making really large amounts of money. But as long as the…

Don't you think there's something of an opportunity cost, though? If someone like Linus had dedicated all his time to a startup (he did spend some time at Transmeta, but still had time for Linux), perhaps he would have never accomplished what he did. Perhaps similar arguments could be made about people like Guido van Rossum. Obviously there are various paths to success, but how many people made their cash, and then went on to do a seriously successful open source project? I'm sure there are one or two out there, but I think mostly it's a one or the other situation.
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