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"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

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Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#21

Post by radu_floricica »

jacoblyles wrote: post #15
maxharris wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the rest of the book seems ridiculous to you? The first time I read it, I thought that everything in Atlas Shrugged was perfect. Even with repeated readings, I never once thought anything was ridiculous. Be specific in your answer.

Ayn Rand often overstates her case for the sake of art (her evil characters, for example, are mostly shallow caricatures). I find that people who don't share her views often mock her works and call her "ridiculous" because she treats some ideas that they hold completely without nuance or sympathy. I can see why they do this, but I think Ayn's detractors overstate their case. She is valuable because she is the only ma…

She did veer a bit too much into philosophy after Atlas Shrugged, but I think she was pretty clear her writing should be taken as a romanticized work of fiction. I think she went as far as she did assuming the reader understands this, and trying to take things literally is a bit foolish. Granted, having been told she is right so many times she may have believed it later, but I remember the edition I read had pretty much a disclaimer in this sense somewhere.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#23

Post by radu_floricica »

maxharris wrote: post #20
jacoblyles wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ayn Rand often overstates her case for the sake of art (her evil characters, for example, are mostly shallow caricatures). I find that people who don't share her views often mock her works and call her "ridiculous" because she treats some ideas that they hold completely without nuance or sympathy. I can see why they do this, but I think Ayn's detractors overstate their case. She is valuable because she is the only ma…

"but absolute truth shall ever elude humans in this complex world." Why? Do you think a grand unified field theory is impossible? Do you think that quantum mechanics is the final word in physics? Do you suppose that that truth is knowable to some hypothetical race of aliens? (You specifically say that humans can't attain any absolute truth.) Or do you simply think that some truths are unknowable, such as distant hist…

Because the world is complicated :) Thankfully. And by the time we get to understand significantly more then we do (not even close to everything) we won't be humans anymore. And this whole point will probably be obsolete.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#24

Post by abstractbill »

radu_floricica wrote: post #19
thras wrote: post #9

Wow. Are people impressed by that article because of the sonorous prose? Because the content definitely isn't impressive. Rand's first mistake is not realizing that the love of money quote speaks to individuals and not to societies. An individual who loves the material world more than the spiritual world (not god necessarily, maybe just the world inside his own head), is pitiable. The saddest thing I've ever heard wa…

We are on Hacker News, aren't we? Most people here value the material world more then the spiritual world. This doesn't mean they completely ignore the latter, of course. But between discussing spirituality and creating something, I'd say most would choose creating. As for making money, this is how our success is measured. Yes, you can do things for your soul, of for your friends, or for your family or for the societ…

Most people here value the material world more then the spiritual world ... between discussing spirituality and creating something, I'd say most would choose creating.

The urge to create things is very spiritual for me, just fwiw. It doesn't have to be material things either - these days it's mostly software and occasionally robots, and in the past it's been mathematics and music. But I must create things - it's a fundamental part of the person I am.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#25

Post by jacoblyles »

maxharris wrote: post #20
jacoblyles wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ayn Rand often overstates her case for the sake of art (her evil characters, for example, are mostly shallow caricatures). I find that people who don't share her views often mock her works and call her "ridiculous" because she treats some ideas that they hold completely without nuance or sympathy. I can see why they do this, but I think Ayn's detractors overstate their case. She is valuable because she is the only ma…

"but absolute truth shall ever elude humans in this complex world." Why? Do you think a grand unified field theory is impossible? Do you think that quantum mechanics is the final word in physics? Do you suppose that that truth is knowable to some hypothetical race of aliens? (You specifically say that humans can't attain any absolute truth.) Or do you simply think that some truths are unknowable, such as distant hist…

Physics is the crown jewel of human knowledge. But even there, the theories of Physics are mere approximations to the actual phenomena that occur in the world. If you are familiar with Physics, then you know how almost-correct theories have been discarded for even more almost-correct theories throughout history.

If our knowledge of as objective a field as Physics is so uncertain, then it makes sense that the state of knowledge in a much more nuanced field like Ethics is near hopeless.

I suspect aliens would run into the same problems as we do, even if they were much smarter than us. I suspect perfect knowledge is unattainable.

Lastly,

>"Do you hold any superstitions (religious or otherwise)? (You probably don't, but it helps to cover all the bases.)"

I don't think the religious would appreciate your reference to their beliefs as "superstition". And no, I am not religious.

However, I don't appreciate your last parenthetical, which implies that I would be offended if you assumed that I was religious. Just yesterday I discovered among Donald Knuth's publications an illustrated book of Bible versus. I have thick enough skin to be lumped among simpletons like Donald Knuth.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#26

Post by maxharris »

radu_floricica wrote: post #23
maxharris wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but absolute truth shall ever elude humans in this complex world." Why? Do you think a grand unified field theory is impossible? Do you think that quantum mechanics is the final word in physics? Do you suppose that that truth is knowable to some hypothetical race of aliens? (You specifically say that humans can't attain any absolute truth.) Or do you simply think that some truths are unknowable, such as distant hist…

Because the world is complicated :) Thankfully. And by the time we get to understand significantly more then we do (not even close to everything) we won't be humans anymore. And this whole point will probably be obsolete.

Sure, the world is complicated. But how does that make an "absolutist" moral system impossible?

I think that with regard to morality (as it applies to humans, on earth), absolute truths and rules are not only possible to know (and make), but necessary. Without this, human actions are no longer guided by reason, and that is a very bad situation.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#27

Post by jacoblyles »

abstractbill wrote: post #24
radu_floricica wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are on Hacker News, aren't we? Most people here value the material world more then the spiritual world. This doesn't mean they completely ignore the latter, of course. But between discussing spirituality and creating something, I'd say most would choose creating. As for making money, this is how our success is measured. Yes, you can do things for your soul, of for your friends, or for your family or for the societ…

Most people here value the material world more then the spiritual world ... between discussing spirituality and creating something, I'd say most would choose creating. The urge to create things is very spiritual for me, just fwiw. It doesn't have to be material things either - these days it's mostly software and occasionally robots, and in the past it's been mathematics and music. But I must create things - it's a fu…

I wish that were me. I try to create because I admire creators. However, the drive to create is not innate to my personality. Rather, it is a struggle.

Fortunately, I am learning to hack my personality to drive myself to do what I want. For example, I surround myself with creative people and I work on team projects where a sense of duty will drive me to do good work. But it is hard, and I must trick myself to do what I desire.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#28

Post by old-gregg »

radu_floricica wrote: post #19
thras wrote: post #9

Wow. Are people impressed by that article because of the sonorous prose? Because the content definitely isn't impressive. Rand's first mistake is not realizing that the love of money quote speaks to individuals and not to societies. An individual who loves the material world more than the spiritual world (not god necessarily, maybe just the world inside his own head), is pitiable. The saddest thing I've ever heard wa…

We are on Hacker News, aren't we? Most people here value the material world more then the spiritual world. This doesn't mean they completely ignore the latter, of course. But between discussing spirituality and creating something, I'd say most would choose creating. As for making money, this is how our success is measured. Yes, you can do things for your soul, of for your friends, or for your family or for the societ…

We are on Hacker News, aren't we? ... [skipped] ... As for making money, this is how our success is measured.

No it is not. I love HN, but most people here accept the distorted definition of a hacker.

Hacker culture had nothing to do with money, only lately, and PG is partially guilty of this, "hacker" started to associate with "21 year old internet millionaire" in the minds of many.

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#29

Post by jacoblyles »

maxharris wrote: post #26
radu_floricica wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the world is complicated :) Thankfully. And by the time we get to understand significantly more then we do (not even close to everything) we won't be humans anymore. And this whole point will probably be obsolete.

Sure, the world is complicated. But how does that make an "absolutist" moral system impossible? I think that with regard to morality (as it applies to humans, on earth), absolute truths and rules are not only possible to know (and make), but necessary. Without this, human actions are no longer guided by reason, and that is a very bad situation.

Discuss morality with intelligent people, and study evolutionary psychology, and it will not take you long to realize that every moral system has some edge cases where obeying it will lead to stomach-turning results. Our moral intuitions are lumpy, inconsistent, and contradictory. This is to be expected because we were designed by blind evolution, and not by any sort of logical process.

Ethical systems serve as great guidelines, but it is impossible to find one simple set of consistent ideas to capture everything that an average person feels is right. It is even more impossible (for a non-theist) to find some sort of objective measure of value by which to determine morality.

>"Without this, human actions are no longer guided by reason, and that is a very bad situation."

Human actions are guided by reason, but never solely by reason. We have a lot of innate biases left over from our 3 billion year evolution.

I think you would enjoy this blog:

http://www.overcomingbias.com/

Re: "Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand

#30

Post by apstuff »

I read the full article, understand the point, and get its relevance to today's circumstances.

That said, I have to admit (and I'm sorry for being way off topic here) I found myself being drawn instead to the overall simplicity of the layout and ease of readability than to the actual message.

It's probably because I'm working on my own stuff and appreciate it when pages are done well (i.e. hacker news).

I looked at the style sheet and it's also very concise.

I know they're using .asp but I'm led to believe capmag.com is fairly easy to maintain.

Please continue using Hacker News to discuss Ayn Rand if you like, but as a developer I thought I'd throw a couple of pennies into the design fountain.

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