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Linux now on 42% of consumer computing devices

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Re: Linux now on 42% of consumer computing devices

#81

Post by josteink »

vidarh wrote: post #57
ttuominen wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android is far from a typical Linux distribution. In addition to custom kernel features (see https://lwn.net/Articles/514901/ ), most of the rest of the system hasn't got anything to do with GNU or GPL and is structured very differently from a typical distribution. O'Reilly's "Embedded Android" is a great source on Android internals. I'm not saying Android isn't good for Linux. I also do appreciate the ability to rea…

Busybox + Ash is far from typical for a desktop Linux distribution. It is on the other hand exceedingly common for embedded Linux, and has been for well over a decade.

Yup. Describes both my router and NAS which I work with all the time.

Re: Linux now on 42% of consumer computing devices

#82

Post by chimeracoder »

valley_guy_12 wrote: post #61
chimeracoder wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's also using most of the standard GNU tools - bash, etc. Actually, I'm pretty sure it uses Busybox tools with ash, not GNU with bash. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/android-and-users-freedom.html

Not exactly. Most Android devices come with a very simple shell named ash, but it's no relation to busybox's ash.

My mistake. Still, it doesn't use GNU utilities - Android is Linux but not GNU.

Re: Linux now on 42% of consumer computing devices

#83

Post by TallGuyShort »

josteink wrote: post #79
betterunix wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can open a shell on a rooted android device and use it much like any other distribution" Assuming, of course, that you can actually root it. "This is a huge win for Linux." Is it? What was won, exactly? If we are not seeing a more vibrant free software ecosystem as a result, then we did not really win anything. The prevalence of app stores, the number of Android devices that are difficult to jailbreak or for whi…

You actually dont have to root it at all. Just download terminal emulator from market and you are good to go.

I've been disappointed by it - everytime I use it for real work it's missing basic utilities and shell features. Has it been more than a novelty for you? If so, I'd love to hear what you've found it useful for.

Re: Linux now on 42% of consumer computing devices

#84

Post by davidandgoliath »

betterunix wrote: post #11
ivix wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "technically" running the Linux kernel, it IS running the linux kernel. It's also using most of the standard GNU tools - bash, etc. You can open a shell on a rooted android device and use it much like any other distribution. This is a huge win for Linux.

"You can open a shell on a rooted android device and use it much like any other distribution" Assuming, of course, that you can actually root it. "This is a huge win for Linux." Is it? What was won, exactly? If we are not seeing a more vibrant free software ecosystem as a result, then we did not really win anything. The prevalence of app stores, the number of Android devices that are difficult to jailbreak or for whi…

A massive win. More developers building on the OS could ultimately result in more developers contributing & honing the OS -- in addition to whatever they open source while building on it.

It's a win win :)

Re: Linux now on 42% of consumer computing devices

#85

Post by [deleted] »

cageface wrote: post #38
betterunix wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can open a shell on a rooted android device and use it much like any other distribution" Assuming, of course, that you can actually root it. "This is a huge win for Linux." Is it? What was won, exactly? If we are not seeing a more vibrant free software ecosystem as a result, then we did not really win anything. The prevalence of app stores, the number of Android devices that are difficult to jailbreak or for whi…

What was won, exactly Consider a world without Android, in which the new, dominant computing platform is an Apple monoculture far more locked down and exclusionary than Microsoft ever dreamed of being in their desktop heyday. Maybe Android is not ideal , but life tends to involve a lot of messy choices. The fact that they are messy doesn't mean that there aren't still important distinctions to be made.

[deleted]

Re: Linux now on 42% of consumer computing devices

#86

Post by josteink »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #83
josteink wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You actually dont have to root it at all. Just download terminal emulator from market and you are good to go.

I've been disappointed by it - everytime I use it for real work it's missing basic utilities and shell features. Has it been more than a novelty for you? If so, I'd love to hear what you've found it useful for.

I use it all the time on my Asus Transformer (which has a keyboard dock).

As for lacking basic utilities, it seems to be a problem depending on your firmware. CM10+ comes with a lot more basic stuff than just plain busybox. I know my Samsung Galaxy S came with almost nada (meaning I needed to install busybox, it wasn't preloaded).

Anyway I now use the Transformer as my main SSH terminal. From the terminal emulator. Like on a normal Linux desktop.

I also use it for finding and grepping stuff in my user/data-folder. If I am to copy things to or from the SD-card in the Transformer, I also find myself prefering to do things via the command line, much like I do on a normal Linux desktop.

As for the phone, I can't say I use it as much there, more for stuff like looking up my IP and MAC via ifconfig etc.

But lacking tools is a problem which can be solved. If you buy "Better Terminal Emulator Pro" ($5-ish) it will offer to download and install a better, more complete (and cross-firmware consistent) set of user-space tools, including stuff like ssh.

Re: Linux now on 42% of consumer computing devices

#87

Post by josteink »

lucian303 wrote: post #22
aleprok wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GNU is not either the operation system as without Hurd, Linux or some other kernel you can not use the GNU tools. GNU/Linux is a collection of software which forms the operation system though this collection can contain even more software and with different collection it becomes different operation system which is why Android is Android and Ubuntu is Ubuntu, etc. But Linux will always be the key component of operatio…

And without GNU tools, Linux by itself is also useless without GNU tools (unless you can compile C by hand). GNU/Linux is the OS. Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. are distributions of this OS.

> And without GNU tools, Linux by itself is also useless.

A world of Android-devices disagree with your definition of "useless". And so does my router and NAS (which both comes with Busybox, not GNU tools).

Re: Linux now on 42% of consumer computing devices

#88

Post by ttuominen »

vidarh wrote: post #57
ttuominen wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android is far from a typical Linux distribution. In addition to custom kernel features (see https://lwn.net/Articles/514901/ ), most of the rest of the system hasn't got anything to do with GNU or GPL and is structured very differently from a typical distribution. O'Reilly's "Embedded Android" is a great source on Android internals. I'm not saying Android isn't good for Linux. I also do appreciate the ability to rea…

Busybox + Ash is far from typical for a desktop Linux distribution. It is on the other hand exceedingly common for embedded Linux, and has been for well over a decade.

My sources tell me that Busybox is actually not included in at least vanilla Android. Not in the AOSP tree at least (just checked (v4.1.2)). I'm not sure if OEMs have included it in actual products, but why would they have? I might be wrong. There are separate installers available to get Busybox on a rooted Android device. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=stericson.busy...

They have a version of the Ash shell, Berkeley licensed, with the original notice by Kenneth Almquist. The Busybox Ash is also derived from the same origin.

As others have pointed out, they also have their own libc.

Most of these decisions seem to have been made to avoid using the GPL outside of the kernel. And a custom libc seems to entail that patches have been necessary to enable some of the standard GNU based tools they do have. If I understand correctly, mainly because of Bionic, you often can't just take a standard piece of Linux userland software and make it work without modifications or without including the GNU libc.

Also because of avoiding the GPL, the hardware driver model is different, with most of the driver logic being in closed source userland code.

The filesystem layout is non-POSIX-like, the way the user accounts and processes are handled is non-standard, they have their own dynamic linker, etc. Not to mention that a large part of the system relies on their Dalvik (Java) virtual machine, with a large application framework implemented in C++ and Java through JNI.

I'm not familiar with the embedded Linux landscape, so I don't know if this heavy avoidance of the GPL is common there. But I do know Android does not resemble GNU/Linux for these reasons.

Re: Linux now on 42% of consumer computing devices

#89

Post by thefreeman »

vidarh wrote: post #55
thefreeman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there android devices that are difficult to root? I have only ever used the Nexus line (closes to actual Android spec), but they have all been incredibly easy to root. I was under the impression they were actually built this way on purpose.

There are certainly devices that are harder. Many relies on various bugs. Most ICS and Jelly Bean devices appears to be trivial to root due to a timing issue in the "recovery" functionality, though - there's a script floating around that claims to root pretty much everything. Note that there are several issues: Rooting is often reasonably easy. But rooting is not enough to be able to install custom roms. For that you…

I guess I do have it wrong then. I thought Android had made efforts to intentionally allow root (and unlock of the bootloader) without requiring an exploit (ie. a security flaw which could easily be used maliciously).

Re: Linux now on 42% of consumer computing devices

#90

Post by bane »

josteink wrote: post #79
betterunix wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can open a shell on a rooted android device and use it much like any other distribution" Assuming, of course, that you can actually root it. "This is a huge win for Linux." Is it? What was won, exactly? If we are not seeing a more vibrant free software ecosystem as a result, then we did not really win anything. The prevalence of app stores, the number of Android devices that are difficult to jailbreak or for whi…

You actually dont have to root it at all. Just download terminal emulator from market and you are good to go.

Servers ultimate is also made out of amazing sauce if you want to go the other way with your devices.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.icecoldapp...

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