Silicon Valley is wrong about college • Hacker News Board

Re: Silicon Valley is wrong about college

#21

Post by davewiner » Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 6:52 PM UTC

voidlogic wrote: post #19

keithpeter wrote: post #2

" Got a chance to reboot my education, which was something I really needed to do. I had a professor in my freshman year of college who showed me that my mind could do math. And from there, I took charge. " How important do we think Maths education is?

Very? If I consider the math courses I took in college undergrad (I was a C-S major) there are some that are useful in everyday day life like pre-Calc (aka. algebra + trig) when I build a new deck or figure out how much grass seed to buy. Others courses such as Calc I and II are useful in understanding the issues and trends around me, both business and political. But the vast majority are valuable to me every day as…

My studies in math led me to graph theory, before I took any Comp Sci. So yeah, I'd say my math was pretty helpful.

It also stretches the mind. It's like saying weight training is useful if you're going to be a basketball player, even though there's no point in a game where you all stop and lift weights. :-)

When you learn how to prove a theorem you are learning how to debug a program.

Re: Silicon Valley is wrong about college

#22

Post by keithpeter » Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 6:53 PM UTC

TillE wrote: post #16

Almost nobody has the drive necessary for completely unguided self-education, and even those people will inevitably miss some important things. I believe that a college education (lectures and assignments, at least) can be replicated online. I just don't see that anyone's done a particularly good job of it yet. There are lots of bits and pieces floating around, but not much overall structure.

As a teacher, I like on-line resources as granular as possible so I can remix them and present them to students. My practice is then the 'glue' that sticks the bits together for the particular individuals I'm working for.

Do you think that direct contact with a teacher (motivation and confidence building in the case of Winer's post) can be replaced by some other model?

Re: Silicon Valley is wrong about college

#23

Post by swalsh » Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 6:53 PM UTC

As someone who left college early in favor of a career, take it from me, its a hell of a lot easier to learn things in school than outside of it.

Re: Silicon Valley is wrong about college

#24

Post by biesnecker » Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 6:53 PM UTC

keithpeter wrote: post #2

" Got a chance to reboot my education, which was something I really needed to do. I had a professor in my freshman year of college who showed me that my mind could do math. And from there, I took charge. " How important do we think Maths education is?

Fantastically important.

Fundamentally, math == logic, and logic is the basis of all of mankind's post-Enlightenment gains in productivity, standard of living, etc.

Re: Silicon Valley is wrong about college

#25

Post by pg » Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 6:54 PM UTC

"Nowadays Silicon Valley says that college education is a waste."

This is false. I know a lot of people in Silicon Valley, and I know no one who says that. Even Peter Thiel, who is arguably the iconic college skeptic, only says that college might not be optimal for everyone.

Re: Silicon Valley is wrong about college

#26

Post by stratosvoukel » Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 6:55 PM UTC

In Europe the knowledge you need to be a educated voter and citizen is supposed to be taught at high school. Most european countries dont have generic education lessons at all. I dont think the purpose of colleges should be making someone a good citizen, that is the role of public education that everyone receives.

Re: Silicon Valley is wrong about college

#27

Post by Bootvis » Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 6:55 PM UTC

jpdevereaux wrote: post #14

japhyr wrote: post #3

The college experience is still pretty worthwhile, but the consequences of taking out loans in order to attend college are gettin uglier. My wife and I are both working in service fields - I am a teacher, and she is a counselor. We are both good at what we do. But we are at our income ceilings. We are paying as much in student loan payments as we are in housing costs. some of my colleagues will be in debt for the res…

This "income ceiling" you mention brings up a potentially interesting idea - why not scale the cost of college according to the expected value of your major? I know that in a broader sense this happens already, as "better" schools tend to be more expensive, but perhaps (to use a cliché example) an English degree and a CS degree shouldn't cost the same.

This plan has one important drawback: If we assume that society is better of by people majoring in CS instead of English then we should not discourage people from studying CS by increasing prices.

Re: Silicon Valley is wrong about college

#28

Post by munger » Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 6:56 PM UTC

I think college, aside from a few useful things you learn and problems with student debt - if nothing else is a good education for playing a game (and learning some discipline). You have rules and constraints - structure. You can determine what the point of the game is.

For example, the point could be - to get the most A's (high marks) with the least amount of effort and the most free time left over for fun. You don't have to take school itself seriously, but it is similar to a career where it pays to play the game.

Re: Silicon Valley is wrong about college

#29

Post by schwabacher » Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 6:59 PM UTC

jpdevereaux wrote: post #14

japhyr wrote: post #3

The college experience is still pretty worthwhile, but the consequences of taking out loans in order to attend college are gettin uglier. My wife and I are both working in service fields - I am a teacher, and she is a counselor. We are both good at what we do. But we are at our income ceilings. We are paying as much in student loan payments as we are in housing costs. some of my colleagues will be in debt for the res…

This "income ceiling" you mention brings up a potentially interesting idea - why not scale the cost of college according to the expected value of your major? I know that in a broader sense this happens already, as "better" schools tend to be more expensive, but perhaps (to use a cliché example) an English degree and a CS degree shouldn't cost the same.

I think this is a bad idea - salaries paid to different fields are a good (although imperfect) way of measuring the value of those skills to society.

If we subsidize education towards less valuable skills at the expense of the most valuable, we end up discouraging people from going into the most needed professions.

Re: Silicon Valley is wrong about college

#30

Post by keithpeter » Sun, Dec 30, 2012, 6:59 PM UTC

voidlogic wrote: post #19

keithpeter wrote: post #2

" Got a chance to reboot my education, which was something I really needed to do. I had a professor in my freshman year of college who showed me that my mind could do math. And from there, I took charge. " How important do we think Maths education is?

Very? If I consider the math courses I took in college undergrad (I was a C-S major) there are some that are useful in everyday day life like pre-Calc (aka. algebra + trig) when I build a new deck or figure out how much grass seed to buy. Others courses such as Calc I and II are useful in understanding the issues and trends around me, both business and political. But the vast majority are valuable to me every day as…

I most certainly agree! Music to my ears as I teach basic mathematics to adults. Probably near your 'pre-Calc' courses, but with an empirical and less abstract focus here in the UK.

What I was getting at (and my not have explained clearly in my first comment) was the importance of a teacher who could inspire confidence in the student, in this case Dave Winer.