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Shaken by the latest digital gold rush, San Francisco struggles for its soul.

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Re: Shaken by the latest digital gold rush, San Francisco struggles for its soul.

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Opening space at the high end of a market can have a disproportionate effect on a total market by removing massive amounts of bidding power. Are there studies on this bit playing out in practice? My impression so far, mostly looking at Manhattan redevelopment, is that building high-end condos typically does not reduce prices for other buildings in the area, but rather raises them: the presence of new high-end housi…

> But probably not good if you want to lower the prices. The thing I'm thinking of is the city-wide market, rather than in a particular locale. One way or the other, though, the wealthy will get to live where they want. The best thing you can do is to try and save the furniture by putting them into golden ghettos, rather than having them fan out and drive off people in multiple districts. > Good statistics either way…

I agree the wealthy will generally get to live where they want. I think there can be some variation in where they want to live, though, depending on policies. Some wealthy definitely want to live in urban areas, and others definitely want to live in suburban areas, but for others it may depend: for example, if you build shiny new condo towers with modern amenities, there are people who currently wouldn't consider moving into a dilapidated Mission complex who would consider buying one of those new condos and moving up to the city. So you might bring in some new rich people to SF depending on what gets built. The worry some anti-gentrification people seem to have is that the end result will be that the new demand gets soaked up by new rich people, and the only place demand is lowered is not so much a city-wide basis as a metropolitan-area-wide basis: prices go down in outlying suburbs, which is where the poor people then have to move. That's what seems to be happening in NYC: every time a new neighborhood is gentrified, poor people have to move another 15 minutes further away from work, into yet another further-out area with worse transit.

Some people hope to make the city stay unattractive to rich people, so they prefer to live on the Peninsula or North Bay (or in NYC, maybe some nice condo towers on Jersey's "gold coast"). So you still have the golden ghetto, so to speak, but you try to put it elsewhere. Even leaving aside whether that's a good goal, I think it's certainly a good question whether current policy will actually do that; it's quite possible anti-growth policies won't have that effect anyway (e.g. Paris's anti-growth policy has certainly not resulted in a non-gentrified Paris). The interconnections are pretty interesting though, and seem hard to model, especially with the existing data points (e.g. NYC) having, as you point out, their own oddities.

Re: Shaken by the latest digital gold rush, San Francisco struggles for its soul.

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What on earth are you on about? Okay, hypothetical from someone with an advanced degree in Economics, not because I'm bragging, but to save you the snark and insults: Developer gets the green light to demolish 30 unit building and build a large high rise at say, 6th and Howard. Many of these people are on the lowest end of the income spectrum. So you demolish the units and build a 150 unit, 15 story luxury apartment…

> No matter how you build "more housing", it very certainly will be first built for the highest income people, thus pushing the lower income teachers, firefighters and policemen, out of San Francisco proper. Clearly your "advanced degree in Economics" hasn't taught you any common sense. Is anyone saying that the housing that is built first has to go to lower income people? Is anyone saying that you cannot just build…

Oh hey back to condescending dickhead mode, you seem great at interacting with other humans...

Anyway, all those theories are fine, but I don't believe the development that could physically be done in the next 3-5 years would outpace tech employees and I believe that it would, as the article says, push lower income SF residents out. This is the entire point of this article, and seems to be going over your head. Not to mention that the article actually addresses the idea of building high rises all over and talks about how poorer high rises will be crime ridden while the upper class high rises would push all the locals and culture out. But hey, why use common sense or rational thought or even bother to read when you can just act like an insufferable condescending asshole? Really, I'm never usually this harsh on people, but your path to "winning" an argument, seems to be hearsay and insulting people versus logic and reason. Fuck that.

Re: Shaken by the latest digital gold rush, San Francisco struggles for its soul.

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it'd be that inaccurate to model the supply of tech workers looking to live in SF as "very large" relative to demand, i.e. not likely to be meaningfully diminished by a dozen or two condo towers. Plus, demand itself depends on housing stock, and good new housing stock tends to produce more demand: people's friends move to SF, they hear about a new condo tower, the whole area gets more desirable. If you…

> It's reasonably accurate to model the supply of tech workers looking to live in SF as not likely to be meaningfully diminished by new construction, i.e. demand >> condo_size. Based on what exactly? I don't think you can compare Manhattan to SF in this regard. Manhattan has general appeal and is well-known worldwide, whereas this issue with SF is specifically due to tech workers. And I am not convinced that there ar…

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Re: Shaken by the latest digital gold rush, San Francisco struggles for its soul.

#64
post #59

Ugh. This city does have some bad housing shortages right now, but this kind of whiny name-dropping i-was-here-first essay doesn't help. Neither does this epic rant I am about to write, but I'm going to do it anyway... My favorite quote so far: "If San Francisco is swallowed whole by the digital elite, many city lovers fear, the once-lush urban landscape will become as flat as a computer screen." Lush urban landscape…

Thanks for this, I agree with everything here but you've illustrated things in a much more detailed and articulate fashion than I could have.

My family owns rental property in the city, so perhaps I can add a little more color here. The reasons that the housing market is so messed up in SF basically boil down to the following:

* Rent control - provides a huge disincentive for landlords to upgrade, invest in, (or for the unscrupulous) maintain their properties. It also artificially limits housing supply and saps liquidity, since people who've been in their units for long periods of time have distorted prices and very limited incentive to move or upgrade.

* Onerous city bureaucracy and regulatory environment - the myriad, overlapping, and draconian sets of rules governing property development and ownership have made new development unnecessarily time- and capital-intensive. Oh, and there's always the tenant's union and the ridiculously pro-tenant judiciary, but that's a story for another day.

* Prop 13 - basically this drives a distortion of property tax rates, with a disproportionate share of the tax burden falling on residential households and newcomers to the city/state.

Note that as (relatively) long-term owners in SF, we've done very well thanks to (2) and (3).

Re: Shaken by the latest digital gold rush, San Francisco struggles for its soul.

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have to remember that San Francisco is a prime earthquake zone. I'm not sure how many rich people would want to live in what is essentially a death trap if a major earthquake (which is supposedly long overdue) were to strike California. Have you seen what Tokyo looks like? http://i.imgur.com/a4GQL.jpg Don't give me that bullshit.

Actually, that photo is a little misleading. Sure, there are some tall buildings in Tokyo, but for a city that size the number of skyscraper class buildings is actually quite low. Tokyo is more an endless sprawl of lowrises and single family dwellings.

It doesn't matter if the percentage of skyscrapers is low, the point is that a large number of them has been built in absolute terms while strictly complying with earthquake regulations. That is, it is entirely possible to safely build skyscrapers in an earthquake zone.

There are a variety of other reasons for Tokyo's urban sprawl, not least the presence of what is the world's most comprehensive public transportation system.

Re: Shaken by the latest digital gold rush, San Francisco struggles for its soul.

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, that photo is a little misleading. Sure, there are some tall buildings in Tokyo, but for a city that size the number of skyscraper class buildings is actually quite low. Tokyo is more an endless sprawl of lowrises and single family dwellings.

It doesn't matter if the percentage of skyscrapers is low, the point is that a large number of them has been built in absolute terms while strictly complying with earthquake regulations. That is, it is entirely possible to safely build skyscrapers in an earthquake zone. There are a variety of other reasons for Tokyo's urban sprawl, not least the presence of what is the world's most comprehensive public transportation…

I completely agree with you. My point was more along the lines of: don't look at Tokyo as an example of building upwards in an earthquake-prone zone to combat housing shortages. Tokyo has sprawled, and built said public transportation network to deal with it.

Re: Shaken by the latest digital gold rush, San Francisco struggles for its soul.

#67
When I moved to this neighborhood in 1993

But isn't this how it always is? You form one idea of how the locale is and if it improves a bit but keeps going, you want to somehow freeze it at your favorite time.

Travis McGee, in fact, many years ago, lamented something like this about San Francisco " . . . she now sells what she used to give away . . .". Florida too, if I am not mistaken. (Travis McGee is a fictional character, by the way).

My Oregon friends say it is wonderful there, but we don't want any more folk to move here.

Re: Shaken by the latest digital gold rush, San Francisco struggles for its soul.

#68

Grrrr. Existing SF residents are facing an influx of newcomers, who are pushing out (pricing out) some existing residents. And somehow, it never occurs to them to just make room for more people, so that existing residents don't get pushed out. SF has plenty of opportunities to build upward , but as long as SF insists on being anti-development and anti-height, the housing supply problem is going to continue.

Why is SF (I assume you mean local government?) anti-height? Are there downsides to building upwards (environmental? taxation?) or is it just a refusal to allow the landscape to change?

There are some city blocks in the Financial District where you're perpetually in the dark and are essentially in a wind tunnel due to the tall buildings. It's creepy as hell. :)

I presume that's mostly the reason.

Re: Shaken by the latest digital gold rush, San Francisco struggles for its soul.

#69
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The op said nothing of poor people. There are plenty of cities in the world that have built up without becoming ghettos. Singapore, Seoul, Tokyo, Hong Kong, New York to name a few. High rise housing != ghetto

The gentrification that's happening in SF and that's described in the original article is happening because the rich are pushing out the original residents -- who were indeed poor. From the article: Again and again, you hear of teachers, nurses, firefighters, police officers, artists, hotel and restaurant workers, and others with no stake in the new digital gold rush being squeezed out of the city. ... Bernal Heights…

It seems like your missing the point. The reason there is no affordable housing is because the city doesn't allow building up so SF is stuck with only existing housing. As it gets more desirable those prices will continue to rise. There's only really a few possible paths forward

1) leave it as is. Prices continue to climb

2) allow building up. Prices come down as supply meets demand

3) some how make sf less desirable lowering demand

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