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The great California Exodus

manhattan-institute.org

11–20 of 69 posts

Re: The great California Exodus

#11
post #2

Seriously considering Seattle or Las Vegas, or farther afield, Hawaii or New Zealand, in 2013+.

The problem with the great California Exodus is the people leaving CA end up trying to re-create CA wherever they move. Just look at the Californication of Seattle, Hawaii and Denver.

Re: The great California Exodus

#12
It seems like there are several additional ways one could spin the data in this report.

From a selfish standpoint, should I, as a Californian in a booming industry that looks like it will remain a central part of the economy for the forseeable future, be too broken up about a lot of people moving elsewhere for jobs? Should I want the metro area I live in to be seeing double-digit-percentages population growth over decades (I don't think that would make it any cheaper, or would make traffic any better)? And even then, the overall populations for the parts of California I'd want to live in are still rising, and jobs and new companies are still being created, and I'm meeting a ton of smart people who've moved here from all over the country.

I certainly have no intention to move back east any time soon. I've found a lot more interesting stuff being done out here, and the weather is worlds better, and the high population density allows a ton of things I like.

Re: The great California Exodus

#13
post #9

The Manhattan Institute is an explicitly conservative political organisation. That doesn't inherently invalidate any of the conclusions they draw, but readers should be aware that they have been made with a pro-free market, anti-big government mindset. Others may draw quite different conclusions from the same facts.

I don't think this is relevant. The reason that people for the most are leaving is not politics or taxes, but high cost of living. The biggest expense for most people is housing. From 1930-2000, almost everyone who moved to CA made money on exploding real-estate values, eithe directy or indirectly. This extended massively peoples wealth, so they lived in houses and with a lifestyle they could never afford based on their "day jobs". Now that the elevator of home-equity is no longer subsidizing cost of living, most people realize that there are a lot more $1MM houses in CA than $300K/yr jobs. And where there are those kind of jobs, a $1M house doesn;t get you much beyond the basics (like in SF/palo alto etc).

Re: The great California Exodus

#14
post #6

At the high end of moving out (rich people), California is unappealing because it's budgetfucked. Education, transportation, public services, and everything else will suffer for a long time. This leads to their crazy high state income tax and crazy high sales taxes and municipalities doing insane additional taxes for businesses on top of everything else. The Bay Area may be the best place to create Show Me Your Food…

"In other words, the highest-income Californians were less likely to leave the state after the millionaire tax was passed."

http://www.stanford.edu/group/scspi/_media/working_papers/Va...

By the way, the reason the state is "budgetfucked" as you eloquently put it is because of low taxes, not high taxes. You may be interested in reading about Proposition 13, a scheme under which people who are sitting on massively valuable assets are taxed at lower rates than those who actively acquire and dispose of much less valuable assets, and where assets held by corporations are taxed static amounts (in terms of absolute magnitude, not rates) in perpetuity.

Re: The great California Exodus

#15
The way the charts are set up, say charts 4 and 5, it looks like people are fleeing places like California and New York, and heading to places like Nevada and South Carolina.

Except the charts are subtracting out-migration from in-migration. California is the most populous state, about 38 million people. New York is the second most populous state, about 19 million people. Nevada went from having 1.2 million to having 2.7 million. South Carolina went from having 3.4 million to having 4.6 million.

Nevada never really had a population base that could have been subtracted in those charts. South Carolina also had a small population base.

What I've seen happen in New York City is large blue-collar families leaving ethnic neighborhoods, and those neighborhoods being replaced by young professionals. Williamsburg is an example - it was a working class ethnic neighborhood, now it is yuppies, hipsters, startups, art galleries, and the like. You can think what you want of it, but it is certainly not a sign of a lack of prosperity.

That's another assumption implicit in the article - that the Duggar family leaving a state, and two yuppie kids moving in is bad economically, because the population decreased. If small populations meant a bad economy then Norway, Denmark, Finland, Singapore, and Uruguay are bad, and Nigeria and Bangladesh are good. Prosperity does not equal population size.

Re: The great California Exodus

#16
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had to put places in order, I'd go with: NYC, Barcelona (May-July), Seattle (August), Austin (not summer).

Sure, I'm biased because I moved here from NYC, but also check out Nashville. You can live like a Columbian drug lord on NYC (or California) freelance rates.

I was kind of turned-off of TN due to Memphis, but maybe Nashville is enough better to be worth considering.

Re: The great California Exodus

#18
post #13
post #9

The Manhattan Institute is an explicitly conservative political organisation. That doesn't inherently invalidate any of the conclusions they draw, but readers should be aware that they have been made with a pro-free market, anti-big government mindset. Others may draw quite different conclusions from the same facts.

I don't think this is relevant. The reason that people for the most are leaving is not politics or taxes, but high cost of living. The biggest expense for most people is housing. From 1930-2000, almost everyone who moved to CA made money on exploding real-estate values, eithe directy or indirectly. This extended massively peoples wealth, so they lived in houses and with a lifestyle they could never afford based on th…

I think it obviously does matter. The conclusion of the paper was clearly written before the rest of it. Gems totally unsupported by the preceding evidence include "California has cut taxes in the past, most dramatically with 1978’s Proposition 13, and when it has done so, prosperity has followed. Ballot propositions this November aim to do the reverse, raising taxes on business owners while the state is still struggling to hold its own against more aggressive, confident rivals. The results will send a strong signal, whichever way they go: the state’s voters will be deciding to continue on the path of high taxes and high costs—or to make a break with the recent trend of decline" and other whoppers. Even the title is ridiculous unless you are willing to define "exodus" as "growing at the same pace as the nation as a whole".

Re: The great California Exodus

#19
post #3

After just roughly scanning the graphs I'd speculate that the ageing society plays a role. Which could explain why less liberal states are experiencing a rise of population, while the more liberal states are experiencing a decline. Which is just my hunch (without any source or proof) that people get more conservative with age. And another one, that they prefer to live in places with like-minded folks. Just wild guess…

There are also numbers that suggest the more conservative states, such as Texas, are becoming more liberal over time. I would almost wager that Texas, at it's current growth rate, could be a swing state by the 2020 Presidential Election.

Re: The great California Exodus

#20
This exodus is occurring in Illinois as well (shown). Both states share similar budget problems along with predictable leadership responses -- higher taxes and reduced services.

What Illinois needs is genuine growth and that doesn't happen overnight. In the meantime, people get fed up and leave -- unless they have to sell their home or business.

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