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Stop Generalizing About Europe

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Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#231

Post by Svip »

loxs wrote: post #56
crazygringo wrote: post #34

This post feels awfully pedantic. While it may not be clear to non-Americans, when Americans talk about "Europe", they're generally talking about Western Europe, not Eastern, and are excluding the UK too. They almost certainly aren't including Russia. (Just like when Americans talk about Asia, they aren't usually thinking of India.) Of course, that's geographically inaccurate -- but it's what we usually mean. The Eur…

> The Europe that Americans refer to does mostly use the > Euro, have better-distributed wealth, plenty of consumers, > and ambivalent feelings toward entrepreneurs in most of > its parts. Well, no it doesn't. Italy and Greece are extremely different to Scandinavia. At least regarding to things like temperament and culture. They are much more like Bulgaria and Turkey, though they may not really be willing to admit th…

This picture is quite true. The company I work for (Danish company) have little to no issue getting into the Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Baltic and Icelandic markets. While we are not the same (although I am hoping for a Nordic Federation coming up!), our markets and policies are generally similar.

But right now we are trying to get in on the German markets (Germany, Austria and Switzerland), and that is a lot harder. First of all, German companies are very reluctant to purchase anything from a non-German company (if you are not German, you need an address in Germany, that's for sure), and secondly, they require that the product is in German (both itself and the manual).

The internal markets of the EEC is making a lot of things a lot easier than it was 20 or 30 years ago. But it is nowhere as easy as moving across state line in the US (or even to Canada).

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#233

Post by lobster_johnson »

jlgreco wrote: post #225
lobster_johnson wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that people walk around with conflicting, internalized geographies in their heads, I'm just pointing out that it's disingenuous to frame your own biases as something "most Americans" think when you don't have the data to back up such a statement. It's a very specific extrapolation to make.

I am stating two things: 1) Americans generalize. Defense: Everybody does, it should be no suprise that Americans are no exception. You really want data on this? 2) Americans, for the most part, do not think that all of Africa is "Africa-y", nor that all of Asia is "Asia-y", nor that all of Europe is "Europey". Defense: Suggestions otherwise are absurd. If you disagree, you provide the data.

I was referring to your specific examples (Budapest, Egypt, Africa) as well as your thesis (Americans have certain finer-grained generalizations).

Not saying your conclusions are incorrect, just that your only data point is yourself, even though you phrase your comments as though you had tons of data. Everything else is just speculation, gut feeling, pop psychology, outright invention etc.

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#234

Post by jeltz »

Vivtek wrote: post #11
Xylakant wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you followed the HN discussion about Varsavskys post? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4968589 He takes his experience from Spain and UK and glosses it all over europe with some hearsay in between. Some of his statements may apply to spain and the UK, but pretty much all of them don't apply in germany - even the ones about germany. So it's not an ad hominem attack when the author says "another one that falls…

No, actually, I hadn't; I'm nominally on vacation. What I'm about to say is intellectually sloppy. But Varsavsky's facts are not terribly important. His point about German startups was true at one time, and is no longer true, but his larger point about legal requirements for the workplace being strict in Europe and essentially non-existent in America is true. His contrast of personal liability for entrepreneurs in Eu…

> His contrast of personal liability for entrepreneurs in Europe with the essential absence of any such liability in America is true.

Not sure what you refer to here since as far as I know most European countries have provided limited liability companies to entrepreneurs since the 19th century. I know for sure Sweden has has them since 1848.

EDIT: Read the original article and it seemed to talk about failure to pay social charges for employees being a criminal liability. That may or may not be the case in Spain, but at leats in Sweden it is no different from failing to pay salaries in general. If you cannot pay what you owe you have to bankrupt your company and the government will pay the salaries. If they think you did it for fraudulent reasons they might press charges against you personally, but that is rare.

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#235

Post by aeonsky »

sameerp1 wrote: post #211
gyardley wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your ignorance of the respective areas is showing. It's hard to talk about a common culture between California and Louisiana when neither California nor Louisiana has a common internal culture. In Louisiana, spend some time in Houma, and then some time in Shreveport. Louisiana has a Cajun-dominated region and a region that's very much part of the Old South, and they're not much alike. In California, spend some time i…

Umm, there is very little American cultural diversity. Slight differences in lifestyle don't make for cultural diversity. At least not in comparison to the various countries of Europe.

I'm Russian and will argue that most of the eastern Europe has very similar culture. Just because you rotate your head to say yes and nod to say no, does not make it vastly culturally different. The culture curtain ends somewhere around Czech Republic. Yes, I am even willing to say Ukraine is about 99% culturally similar, and that should stand for something since many know how much Russians despise being associated with Ukraine.

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#236

Post by snogglethorpe »

SheriffFatman wrote: post #189
antiterra wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is true then "Germany," "China," "Russia," "Ireland," "Australia," et al. are all slang for their proper (sometimes anglicized) country names.

But there's a difference in that "America" or "the Americas" can include a much larger area than just the USA, while that's not true for the countries you list. China is agreed by both the PRC and the RoC to include Taiwan -- they just disagree over who is the legitimate government; "Germany" historically meant all German-speaking lands, but that usage is now, for understandable reasons, defunct; the Commonwealth of…

> China is agreed by both the PRC and the RoC to include Taiwan -- they just disagree over who is the legitimate government

This is the historical position of the Taiwanese government, but it's decreasingly true amongst the Taiwanese people, so to some degree it's already an anachronism. Many actual Taiwanese don't self-identify as "Chinese" at all (while obviously recognizing the common heritage).

However, given the common tendency to use "Chinese" to refer to the greater cultural sphere, there can some confusion...

[I make this mistake routinely talking to people from Taiwan, saying something like "blah blah because you're Chinese" to which they immediately reply "No, no, I'm Taiwanese" (and this is generally amongst the politically apathetic young).]

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#237

Post by riffraff »

VeejayRampay wrote: post #153
conradfr wrote: post #18

If you think of it, pop culture shared amongst Europeans have a greater chance to be American than European.

As a French dude, I've always dreamt of a more unified European culture. As in producing movies, TV shows with European money, catering to a European audience. England already produces some more-than-decent TV shows as it is. We should also make English the official language, that would help us all move forward.

they do them some times, think eurovision, or the (IIRC) french-german production of the borgias' story.

And I must have a seen a thousand things co-produced by Canal+.

Anyway, I really miss jeux sans frontieres :(

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#238

Post by tacheshun »

nhebb wrote: post #54

I think a lot of us need to admit that the author is right. I, for one, do generalize about Europe. I think of social democracies with high taxes. I think of arcane rules and regulations to start and run a business. And most of all, I limit the term "Europe" to include about 20 of the 50 European countries. I will never think of Russia as a European country. If I entered a contest and won a vacation to "Europe" - and…

No european will include Russia in Europe. Except, of course, the important matters like gas, football and Eurovision. Same for Israel.

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#239

Post by jlgreco »

lobster_johnson wrote: post #233
jlgreco wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am stating two things: 1) Americans generalize. Defense: Everybody does, it should be no suprise that Americans are no exception. You really want data on this? 2) Americans, for the most part, do not think that all of Africa is "Africa-y", nor that all of Asia is "Asia-y", nor that all of Europe is "Europey". Defense: Suggestions otherwise are absurd. If you disagree, you provide the data.

I was referring to your specific examples (Budapest, Egypt, Africa) as well as your thesis (Americans have certain finer-grained generalizations). Not saying your conclusions are incorrect, just that your only data point is yourself, even though you phrase your comments as though you had tons of data. Everything else is just speculation, gut feeling, pop psychology, outright invention etc.

Even if my particular examples are specific to myself, the point remains intact and true of the larger population.

But really, India not being 'Asian' despite being in Asia is a readily observable American phenomenon. If you haven't noticed that, you either have not spent much time in America, or are deluding yourself.

And can you really deny that Egypt is treated differently in popular culture than what is commonly referred to as "Africa"? Do you actually disagree that this is the case, or are you just being a curmudgeon because I dared speak without first securing a sociology degree and perform a study?

You really want some data? The entire concept of "Middle East" is a pretty decent example of how Americans generalize at a finer grain than "continent". Go do a google news search for "Middle East". Count the results, enjoy your precious data.

Would you also demand data of someone who said that Americans think the sky is blue?

Re: Stop Generalizing About Europe

#240

Post by _pferreir_ »

loxs wrote: post #93
milesskorpen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most Americans would break the European continent into "Europe" (aka continental W. Europe), the UK, East Europe, and Russia. Even if rounded up, there is a clear distinction between Europe (W. Europe + UK) and East Europe (E Europe + Russia) which probably has something to do with Cold War borders and allies.

Correct regarding the reasons and wrong regarding the current situation. You will be much more spot-on if you divide between the "former USSR" and "rest of Europe". Former USSR countries are mostly unified by the same language, religion (or lack of) and culture. They used to be the same country... much alike the USA. "The rest of Europe" is now mostly part of (or willing to join) the European organizations like (but…

> Former USSR countries are mostly unified by the same language, religion (or lack of) and culture. They used to be the same country... much alike the USA.

Wrong. There are significant Russian-speaking minorities in most of those countries, but they all have their own official language (with the exception of Russia [doh...] and Belarus, I believe). They all had them before WWII, Russian having been an imposition of the occupying power.

Common Religion? Have a look at Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan... all of them countries with overwhelming Muslim majorities.

Let's not confuse the Soviet ideal of a common language and religion (lack thereof) with real life. The USSR was imposed by the use of force after WWII, it has got nothing to do with the US.

> "The rest of Europe" is now mostly part of (or willing to join) the European organizations like (but not only) the EU.

Well, Switzerland for one has a long history of trying to avoid it at all cost, and the UK seems to actually want to loosen its ties with the EU. I can't imagine Norway or Iceland wanting to join the club anytime soon. There are negotiations ongoing with Turkey, but the case for accession seem to be losing internal momentum.

The EU has reached a point at which getting to a political consensus is basically impossible. At the same time, the emergence of Asia and Latin America as new centers of economic growth is having an impact on the Union's importance both commercially and politically. And the ongoing sovereign debt crisis isn't helping.

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