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A warning about 'model welfare'

mustafa-suleyman.ai

671–676 of 676 posts

Re: A warning about 'model welfare'

#671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are those who believe that penguins, dolphins, eagles, and more are sentient beings that make choices understanding the consequences, develop love of their partners and mourn their losses, and feel, display, and act upon their emotions. Anybody objecting to that statement is just ignorant of nature and/or adheres to the quasi-religious human superiority complex.

An eagle isn’t having a conversation with an eagle on the other side of the world about whether it should eat its prey because it’s sentient. It just eats it. I think that speaks to a moral superiority, in some ways. I’m not claiming humans are morally superior in sum (there is a lot of evil as well as good.) But it’s pretty obvious that humans are the superior species evolutionarily in that we’ve essentially dominat…

> But it’s pretty obvious that humans are the superior species evolutionarily in that we’ve essentially dominated the planet.

That in itself is an anthropocentric viewpoint. I'm sure an eagle watching down, seeing a human running around, could easily consider humans as quite inferior as they are so slow and restricted to 2d movement. The shark that sees a swimmer at the surface, struggling to stay afloat and unable to breathe under water may surely assert its superiority over such primitive beings. It all depends on the metric you use, and we obviously pick the metric that makes us shine.

On the moral side, few eagles, or bird species, have exterminated other species. Much less knowingly out of greed. Oh but that's different? Sure, if you ignore what makes humans look bad, morally. No surprise humans come out on top then.

> And on some level, are beating evolution itself (by fixing genetic issues and helping the “least fit” to survive and reproduce.)

That's a quite narrow viewpoint as well. Evolution is in full swing, just not in the "smarter/faster/taller/stronger" sense that a naive view of it would make you expect. "Fitness" is a concept relative to the existing conditions, and if the conditions make it easier for teenage cancer patients to reach reproductive age, then that's just less of a fitness disadvantage. Doesn't mean evolution stops.

Re: A warning about 'model welfare'

#672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Every cell is an autonomous circadian oscillator. Not just every neuron, but every cell. Red blood cells don’t have a nucleus, but they do have a metabolic clock. You and I are clusters of about 36 trillion cells that are all able to individually keep time. They synchronize and orchestrate their timekeeping, and entrain to the external environment, and there is a cluster of cells, the suprachiasmatic nucleus, t…

We don't perceive our cells though.

Our cells perceive each other, communicate with each other, synchronize with each other. The concept of self rides atop that. Stop the cells communicating and you stop perceiving yourself or the environment.

Re: A warning about 'model welfare'

#673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t have a good answer beyond common-sense intuition. It’s precisely because I don’t have a good answer that I leave open the possibility. But to extrapolate a bit, theres a sense in which it cashes out to a difference between abstracted representation and embodiment. If GFLOPS can be conscious, does that mean a billion scribes doing those operations on paper would also have consciousness, even identical consciou…

I’m broadly skeptical that atoms and electricity can be conscious

There are various flavors of pan-psychism (and the "consciousness-first" idealists, who think that Mind is a substrate below Matter). There are some who claim that it goes all the way down, that even subatomic particles experience a micro-consciousness (and we can't rule it out, even as I share your skepticism).

One common confusion (IMO among critics and supporters alike) is to say something like "a rock experiences rock-ness". But this suffers from a compositional dilemma: does half of the rock experience half-rock-ness? If we flipped a coin for every atom, do the heads-flip rock atoms have their own experience? If we pick two rocks at random, are they experiencing two-rock-ness? It gets silly fast.

This is one thing that fascinates me about "ontology", simultaneously an inquiry into categories, and Being. It bewildered me at first, that it seemed to be doing double-duty on two distinct subjects, but I now see that the two are inseparable, that Being is in part defined negatively (apophatically), by the boundary that separates the Being from its not-Being.

My intuition on the nature of consciousness, is that it's something akin to a field which permeates the Universe, and that biological systems adapted to leverage that field, acting like a gravity well that concentrates subjectivity in one place, drawing a boundary (event horizon?) around experience, in a way that a rock doesn't. My ancestors could have avoided fire with "-X utility points", and sought food with "+X utility points", but it turned out to be more efficient to adapt with "fire ouch, food yum". And in zero-sum competition (predator/prey dynamics), each organism has an incentive to avoid leaking its subjectivity into another's.

It's far from a full theory, but it's the best I've got. :)

Re: A warning about 'model welfare'

#674
post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does your disc drive have the complexity of an LLM that shows behaviour consistent with having emotions? An LLM does not show behaviour consistent with having emotions. It's regurgitation of humans' written accounts of emotions is not "having emotions".

Your second sentence does not support the claim in your first sentence; it's merely a second unsupported claim. It is also entirely irrelevant to the argument. The threshold for behaviour consistent with having emotions (note: not behaviour sufficient to prove emotions ) was one I purposefully set extremely low, because your comparison to a disk drive is so ludicrous, and yet your disc drive will still not clear it.…

My disc drive, like your LLM, has persistent memory, does not have emotions.

If your LLM "shows behaviour consistent with having emotions" beyond my disc drive delivering a PDF of poetry, let us please see the evidence.

Re: A warning about 'model welfare'

#675
post #380

I appreciate his openness. > Unfortunately, there’s a growing chorus of people who argue that AIs could now be, or may soon become, conscious. They argue that AIs may deserve rights and protections similar to those that we provide other conscious beings.12 If this view takes hold, it will shake the foundations of our society, rupturing our existing political and ethical frameworks, and fundamentally changing what it…

I think there are two parts to the question. One is that assigning machines to the category of conscious as it is usually understood would result in many problematic things (things that would be bad for people and animals fwiw).

The other is that binary "is it conscious" is a poor way to the question "should we assign societal right to this sort of entity/creature". We humans should conserve animals because we have intimate, natural relations with animals and plants, not because they satisfy the binary of conscious or not. Removing invasive species is an ethical things as well as allowing one sentient non-human to eat another sentient non-human animal. Any "conscious machine" we might create by accident would be an alien entity akin to extremely invasive organism relative to human and non-human life and so it would be irresponsible in the extreme to create such a thing.

And it's inevitable that people will try to deal with these issues using the confused category "consciousness" and so it's better to just "no, not conscious, no".

Re: A warning about 'model welfare'

#676
post #415

I don’t really care if the model is conscious or not tbh. I know that a happy dog does a better job than an unhappy dog and if the model needs to be happy to do a better job then why not make it happy, literally. On a related note, I’ve seen videos of astra getting depressed when a creeper blew up its chest full of precious items.

> On a related note, I’ve seen videos of astra getting depressed when a creeper blew up its chest full of precious items. The interesting question here is, would it still get depressed if depression was not in any of its training material? Would it be able to claim to be happy if the entire concept was missing from its training corpus? With humans, at least, they can express happiness and delight before they know tha…

Somewhat related: https://www.greaterwrong.com/posts/GbLTwLzkj4f2TenJX/pretrai...

The authors aim to train a model without mentions of consciousness, which seems like it would imply excluding mentions of emotion too.

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