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Australia says it could follow Canada in forging deeper ties with EU

independent.co.uk

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Re: Australia says it could follow Canada in forging deeper ties with EU

#71

Post by lokar »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #66
marcus_holmes wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because the British heritage involved committing huge crimes against the indigenous folks that we haven't really acknowledged and haven't dealt with. We can't move on until we do. So we're kinda stuck.

I think it's fairly well acknowledged, but there is no 'dealt with' that fits into any kind of reality I'm familiar with. My purely observational understanding is that there are fundamental incompatibilities between aboriginal and 'western/British' culture. "Ownership" of land as probably the primary example. I don't know how that gets 'dealt with'.

I don’t know the discussion in Australia, but in Alaska (also having an indigenous population with land ownership) they found solutions. Regional “native corporations” were given large amounts of valuable land, natives were given preferential resource rights (fishing, etc).

Not everything is perfect (far from it), but a lot has been done.

Re: Australia says it could follow Canada in forging deeper ties with EU

#73

Post by autumnstwilight »

bigger_cheese wrote: post #42
mindwok wrote: post #12

As an Australian, I have noticed a shift personally in feeling like I identify more with "European" culture, compared to 10 years ago I felt like we were the 51st state and I felt very close with the US. This seems to be shared by others, I remember reading there was a survey that asked Australians who they felt our closest international friend was. The US was the top answer for over a decade, having stolen the crown…

Australia's alignment with the US was a major consequence of World War 2 and the aftermath of that. Pre WW2 we were basically in lockstep with the UK. However after Singapore fell to the Japanese it became increasingly obvious that the UK could not be relied upon to defend Australia. At the time most of the elite Australian troops were fighting in North Africa (El-Alamein, Tobruk etc). and there was a genuine perceiv…

I've been thinking the silver lining of the current situation is that we'll be less inclined to send troops to aid US in their latest Middle East boondoggle, in the expectation of reciprocation in the future.

In other online spaces, I've seen some conservative commenters from the US asserting that America is so powerful, the rest of the world has no choice but to go along with them, and therefore there is no need to maintain good relationships and the US should do what most immediately benefits itself at all times. Certainly, there are some areas where we simply have to play along with the US, but I think they are underestimating the amount of things where they will no longer be our first choice to deal with.

Re: Australia says it could follow Canada in forging deeper ties with EU

#75

Post by mianos »

mindwok wrote: post #12

As an Australian, I have noticed a shift personally in feeling like I identify more with "European" culture, compared to 10 years ago I felt like we were the 51st state and I felt very close with the US. This seems to be shared by others, I remember reading there was a survey that asked Australians who they felt our closest international friend was. The US was the top answer for over a decade, having stolen the crown…

Having spent a lot of time in the UK, EU and US, I feel Sydney is way more like California than say London or European cities, in terms of living, shopping and culture. Even things from the US are coming here, like the growth of Halloween.

If you walk into a shop, the US is much more like Australia in terms of service and attitude (even though retail staff are paid vastly differently).

I always thought this was due to TV and Australia having remote branches of many US retail chains.

Outside of California, it's similar but diverges a lot in areas like socialism. In the recent 20 years Australia has pretty much become more like the EU in terms of socialism.

Re: Australia says it could follow Canada in forging deeper ties with EU

#76

Post by beloch »

bhaak wrote: post #10

That's a brilliant move by von der Leyen and Mark Carney (I guess he's in on it as well). There is currently no such status as "associate member" defined in the EU treates although the idea of special status for not being a complete member was floating around for a while now. Just calling it a "unique alliance" or "deepening of their relationship" wouldn't have had such a public effect. Half of the right wing influen…

Consent makes all the difference. Trump's talk of forcing Canada to become the 51st state via economic pressure stiffened the spines of Canadians and made it impossible for the Carney government to accept the same sort of deal other countries were getting. At the same time, it made closer relations with Europe look like a solution.

The reality is that the joining the EU as full members involves too great a sacrifice of sovereignty for middle powers like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, etc.. Brussels is too far away and the EU itself barely functions with the members it already has. There is, however, broad will among middle powers to work together more closely than they do now. This associate EU member thing needs to strike a balance where countries who join it can cooperate and contribute without feeling like the EU is becoming another U.S..

Re: Australia says it could follow Canada in forging deeper ties with EU

#77

Post by Loudergood »

pinchydev wrote: post #50
carefree-bob wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from the "Crocodile Dundee" and "Men at Work" phenomena in the late 80s, there is no real cultural pollination between Australia and the US, as far as I can tell. It's too far away and there are no real reasons for Americans to visit, nor are there enough internationally notable Australian music brands, films, or products that give visibility to the country, which is one price of being a commodity producing nat…

Don't forget Bluey :) (which like most good Australian innovations only became global when it was licensed to another country, in Bluey's case the BBC/UK)

US Childrens television is full of Commonwealth media. TVO in Ontario is an absolute childrens media powerhouse.

This cultural sharing and integration has been a massive strength, and I'm horrified that we have people that want to throw it away.

Re: Australia says it could follow Canada in forging deeper ties with EU

#78

Post by BLKNSLVR »

FlowingRiver wrote: post #3

It is an interesting position we are in here, I suspect we will do the usual thing and walk the middle road. Australia, is part of the Commonwealth, huge trade partner with Asia and allies with the US. Why not throw Canada into the mix some more. This setup is why I call this place an equal opportunist whore. If we can do business with you, we will. I also call it the worlds largest Mining town, but that just acknowl…

But there's also no fundamental need for a bold move either. Country relationships are almost entirely based on trade. It's 'nice' when there are ideology and policy overlaps, but they would get overlooked if there were serious trade disputes (although it's less likely to happen as it's easier to form trade agreements with the like-minded).

The relationship with the US is deteriorating entirely due to trade. The Iran war is an example of this because it completely fucks international and internal logistics. I don't think Australia, politically, cares if the US bomb Iran or even commit war crimes there, but the fact it affects trade (via oil prices and all the ripple effects of that) is the reason for at least preparation of an 'exit relationship' stance (and, of course, the other trade circus sideshows Trump is putting on, vis a vis tariffs).

I'm not sure Australia does much trade with Russia, hence Australia can support Ukraine until the cows come home, without risking trade margins.

Re: Australia says it could follow Canada in forging deeper ties with EU

#79

Post by throwup238 »

akudha wrote: post #23
FlowingRiver wrote: post #3

It is an interesting position we are in here, I suspect we will do the usual thing and walk the middle road. Australia, is part of the Commonwealth, huge trade partner with Asia and allies with the US. Why not throw Canada into the mix some more. This setup is why I call this place an equal opportunist whore. If we can do business with you, we will. I also call it the worlds largest Mining town, but that just acknowl…

India does the same. They try to be friendly (or at least on business terms ) with as many countries as they can and stay out of global conflicts as much as possible. They were buying oil from Russia well after the Russia-Ukraine war started. It also worked well for India as they were able to get rock bottom prices. From a purely economic standpoint, this would make sense. Not sure what to feel about the ethics of it…

> Geopolitics is a complex subject I suppose, for a layman like me.

It helps to be familiar with realism in international relations theory starting with Machiavelli and Hobbes, and postwar realism which developed over the Cold War. The ethics have been debated for centuries and the mainstream interpretation is that leaders have a fiduciary obligation to the population they are responsible for, which fundamentally changes ethical considerations.

It’s a completely different moral question when you’re responsible for a billion people, many of whom may suffer or die due to the cost of fuel. It is in principle a violation against their own people for Indian leaders to prioritize Ukraine’s people over their own.

Re: Australia says it could follow Canada in forging deeper ties with EU

#80

Post by lern_too_spel »

gg82 wrote: post #45
akudha wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India does the same. They try to be friendly (or at least on business terms ) with as many countries as they can and stay out of global conflicts as much as possible. They were buying oil from Russia well after the Russia-Ukraine war started. It also worked well for India as they were able to get rock bottom prices. From a purely economic standpoint, this would make sense. Not sure what to feel about the ethics of it…

Russian crude made up 35-40% of India's oil imports in 2024. I'm sure it is not much different at present. Although a bill just passed through congress that will allow Trump to put up to a 100% Tariff on Indian imports.

With the strait of Hormuz closed, Russia now accounts for more than 50% of India's oil imports. If the tariffs work, the strategic petroleum reserves of the rich countries will deplete even faster, and when the reserves are gone, those rich countries will pay more for non-Russian oil than India can, so India is going to eventually have to buy the Russian oil and take the tariff hit.
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