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Israeli Minister Threatens Filmmakers' Citizenship over Gaza Documentary

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Re: Israeli Minister Threatens Filmmakers' Citizenship over Gaza Documentary

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, one viewpoint is that it's broadly true , maybe with some exaggeration by the filmmakers and/or interviewees. It's very understandable that soldiers would want to stay anonymous in that version. I don't think many people would buy your "more logical for them to just go on the record" claim -- in this situation, people are scared! And they have conflicted loyalties as well. They want to blow the whistle, but don…

My sense given what I’ve read is that it’s partly true but misleading (and there’s probably some outright lies). But even the idea of “misleading” is very difficult to define because we’re talking about moral judgments about how to conduct war. For example, apparently in the film they recount a NAZA that was done for strikes to assassinate Hamas leaders in Gaza (NAZA is an acronym in Hebrew that means “collateral dam…

You're hanging a lot of weight on birth rates to assert that they are wrong and therefore we are right. A birth rate above replacement isn't endlessly sustainable either, right?

And "the west" isn't really homogenous for these purposes. Most western countries don't have a school shootings problem, only the USA does. The parts of the west most heavily criticising Israel are not the USA, it's places like Spain and Ireland (both of which have interesting historical parallels!) I think the USA has a higher birth rate than the EU, so maybe you'd prefer them on that basis, but then you don't want school shootings, so maybe you prefer the EU. You can probably find a reason to dislike everyone if that's what you want to do.

In the most charitable interpretation, the filmmakers chose to make this film as Western liberals trying to influence the Israeli government to adopt more Western liberal values

That's hardly the most charitable interpretation! Maybe they're trying to influence Israeli citizens, or maybe they're trying to influence Zionists abroad? There's no need to assume some insidious outsider conspiracy.

Surely people are allowed to disagree non-violently with their current government! If that's the kind of "foreign ideology" that you're dismissing out of hand, well, that certainly clarifies things.

Re: Israeli Minister Threatens Filmmakers' Citizenship over Gaza Documentary

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sense given what I’ve read is that it’s partly true but misleading (and there’s probably some outright lies). But even the idea of “misleading” is very difficult to define because we’re talking about moral judgments about how to conduct war. For example, apparently in the film they recount a NAZA that was done for strikes to assassinate Hamas leaders in Gaza (NAZA is an acronym in Hebrew that means “collateral dam…

You're hanging a lot of weight on birth rates to assert that they are wrong and therefore we are right . A birth rate above replacement isn't endlessly sustainable either, right? And "the west" isn't really homogenous for these purposes. Most western countries don't have a school shootings problem, only the USA does. The parts of the west most heavily criticising Israel are not the USA, it's places like Spain and Ire…

My point about the birth rates is that you need to treat all Western sensibilities as suspect given that they have led to non-viable societies. It doesn’t necessarily mean that every Western sensibility is wrong but that you have to essentially dismiss them all.

On one hand we have a functional society that is growing in wealth and also in population due to native born citizens meeting, getting married, having children.

On the other hand you have stagnant or declining societies (in real GDP terms) where people are not meeting, not getting married, not having children.

The school shootings is just one social ill I bring up, in Europe you have an issue with mass migration and Muslims engaging in mass sex crimes against children. I could go on about others (suicide rates, drug use rates, migration of young native people to other countries).

Does that make sense?

I never claimed there was an insidious outsider conspiracy although of course there is verified flows of foreign money from governments and NGOs to fund leftist causes and groups within Israel. You can look this up yourself, there are ongoing investigations in Congress as far as US moneys are concerned.

In this case I doubt that had much to do with it.

Israelis are well known for disagreeing with their government. This obviously goes beyond disagreement and into traitorous activity and it’s being treated as such by the Israeli government and Israeli public.

Re: Israeli Minister Threatens Filmmakers' Citizenship over Gaza Documentary

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're hanging a lot of weight on birth rates to assert that they are wrong and therefore we are right . A birth rate above replacement isn't endlessly sustainable either, right? And "the west" isn't really homogenous for these purposes. Most western countries don't have a school shootings problem, only the USA does. The parts of the west most heavily criticising Israel are not the USA, it's places like Spain and Ire…

My point about the birth rates is that you need to treat all Western sensibilities as suspect given that they have led to non-viable societies. It doesn’t necessarily mean that every Western sensibility is wrong but that you have to essentially dismiss them all. On one hand we have a functional society that is growing in wealth and also in population due to native born citizens meeting, getting married, having childr…

I don't think we are ever going to see eye to eye, but thanks for trying to explain.

Re: Israeli Minister Threatens Filmmakers' Citizenship over Gaza Documentary

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point about the birth rates is that you need to treat all Western sensibilities as suspect given that they have led to non-viable societies. It doesn’t necessarily mean that every Western sensibility is wrong but that you have to essentially dismiss them all. On one hand we have a functional society that is growing in wealth and also in population due to native born citizens meeting, getting married, having childr…

I don't think we are ever going to see eye to eye, but thanks for trying to explain.

Fair enough, hopefully you and your society get a nice footnote in a history book somewhere

Re: Israeli Minister Threatens Filmmakers' Citizenship over Gaza Documentary

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The immediate response to the 10/7 infiltration attack was extremely lethal to Israelis as well, something not well covered outside of Israeli media. 28 helicopters emptied their internal stores of 30mm autocannon and Hellfires that day, with many RTB to rearm/refuel, all of them at dense Israeli territory. Seven of them dumped their entire stores into Moshav Tkuma. To this day all deaths there are tallied to the inf…

please tell me how you got this info

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive

Re: Israeli Minister Threatens Filmmakers' Citizenship over Gaza Documentary

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sense given what I’ve read is that it’s partly true but misleading (and there’s probably some outright lies). But even the idea of “misleading” is very difficult to define because we’re talking about moral judgments about how to conduct war. For example, apparently in the film they recount a NAZA that was done for strikes to assassinate Hamas leaders in Gaza (NAZA is an acronym in Hebrew that means “collateral dam…

You're hanging a lot of weight on birth rates to assert that they are wrong and therefore we are right . A birth rate above replacement isn't endlessly sustainable either, right? And "the west" isn't really homogenous for these purposes. Most western countries don't have a school shootings problem, only the USA does. The parts of the west most heavily criticising Israel are not the USA, it's places like Spain and Ire…

> You're hanging a lot of weight on birth rates…

https://knowyourmeme.com/sensitive/memes/the-writers-barely-...

Re: Israeli Minister Threatens Filmmakers' Citizenship over Gaza Documentary

#107
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Holocaust only happened after there was a viable functional Jewish settlement in Israel. Tel Aviv was founded in 1909 just to give you a sense of the infrastructure that existed. Jews are not meant to live out their lives in exile

Most Jews who died in the Holocaust were unable to go to Israel. It sounds like you are blaming people who died for being in Europe.

It is just the typical antisemitism zionists gladly boast about. They had slurs for holocaust survivors and looked down on them. They viewed the jews who dared stay in Europe with the communities they built over many years as inferior and weak. They still talk down to the diaspora today.

It is why the false equivalence of jew and zionist is so bad. It aids the antisemites in erasing the many rich and vibrant jewish communities that existed in Europe.

Re: Israeli Minister Threatens Filmmakers' Citizenship over Gaza Documentary

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The immediate response to the 10/7 infiltration attack was extremely lethal to Israelis as well, something not well covered outside of Israeli media. 28 helicopters emptied their internal stores of 30mm autocannon and Hellfires that day, with many RTB to rearm/refuel, all of them at dense Israeli territory. Seven of them dumped their entire stores into Moshav Tkuma. To this day all deaths there are tallied to the inf…

This is a conspiracy that has next to no evidence to support its claims. Judging by your usage of extremely lethal im going to guess you think a significant % of the deaths that day were friendly fire. IDF have addressed both the friendly fire instances and the deaths were 14

Today I learned that "extremely lethal" has an alternative meaning of "composing the majority". Did not know that.

Re: Israeli Minister Threatens Filmmakers' Citizenship over Gaza Documentary

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conspiracy is lying and that it was more than it actually was to downplay the hamas deaths. Re-read the comment I replied two and look at the way its worded "The immediate response to the 10/7 infiltration attack was extremely lethal to Israelis as well", "28 helicopters emptied their internal stores of 30mm autocannon and Hellfires that day, with many RTB to rearm/refuel, all of them at dense Israeli territory S…

So the conspiracy is that Israel killed its own people, but in a different way than the person said.

The conspiracy is that a significant portion of deaths were from the idf and the language they used aligns with that conspiracy.
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