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EU chief opens door for Canada to become 'associate member'

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Re: EU chief opens door for Canada to become 'associate member'

#321

Post by Sharlin »

fidotron wrote: post #283
klelatti wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Carney was asking for freedom of movement of goods, people and services, but without full monetary and legislative integration. > no payments into each others budget. Not going to happen! To enable free movement of goods and services the EU insists that the goods and services are produced in an identical regulatory environment. Even when the regimes are basically identical - eg the UK - then the EU doesn't permit i…

It's actually going to raise questions as to why the EU are A-OK with this now when a possible interpretation of associate membership is it's what Cameron was trying to negotiate the UK into when complete inflexibility on the EU side triggered the Brexit referendum. All depends on what an associate member is of course.

The UK already enjoyed a large amount of unique concessions as a full member. The rest of the EU was right not to give in. Also, game theoretically it's of course more important to not make leaving (or threatening to leave) the union seem too lucrative. No such problem in negotiating tighter integration with nonmembers (and in retrospect, many of the old WP countries should've joined as something like associate members at first…)

Re: EU chief opens door for Canada to become 'associate member'

#322

Post by data-ottawa »

cmiles8 wrote: post #158

This would be Canada getting down leveled to the minor leagues. Yes there are a few issues with the US, but Canada is vastly better off playing on the world stage under the wings of the US than it would be as the EU’s “associate member.” The next phase of history is going the be China and the US and then everyone else scrambling for scraps.

What specifically do you mean “under the wings of the US?”

Re: EU chief opens door for Canada to become 'associate member'

#323

Post by slopinthebag »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #202
slopinthebag wrote: post #170

im canadian but this feels performative yes i get it, stick it to the USA. yay patriotism. suddenly thats cool and not problematic for some reason. and im also all for less restrictive coordination between nations. it's all performative in the end. but like, this feels basically like "stick it to trump" and not anything meaningful.

I agree and at the same time I'm all for it. Almost a decade on and most Canadians don't seem to realize we already have CETA (free trade) with the EU. It's not fully fully ratified but it's there. It's why our grocery stores have been slowly filling with European products we never had before (Yay!) For example: It's already cheaper for me -- as a consumer -- to import sporting goods (skis, etc) from the EU than it i…

funny cuz i still cant buy european butter :P

best we can get is "european style"

id love to just move to somewhere in the eu and be able to freely work there. thats how it should be in every country btw. until then, it seems like more performance, which carney has seemingly mastered.

Re: EU chief opens door for Canada to become 'associate member'

#324

Post by graemep »

ChrisRR wrote: post #269
cronin101 wrote: post #33

Is this the path to a Bizarro World future where the Commonwealth realms become associate members of the EU to slowly unBrexit? I don't hate the idea

I wouldn't be surprised if Scotland eventually leaves UK and joins the EU. Part of the reason they voted to stay in the UK was so that they could remain in the EU, and then brexit happened

They would then have a hard border with England, and would have to untangle their economy from the UK to some extent, which would be extremely disruptive. There will also be complex issues around who gets which citizenship, who would need work visas, a change of currency, etc.

It was known that there was likely to be a Brexit referendum at the time of the Scottish referendum: Cameron had promised one if the Conservatives won the 2015 election.

Re: EU chief opens door for Canada to become 'associate member'

#325

Post by cmiles8 »

joha4270 wrote: post #287
cmiles8 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you, but the US is hardly the only country on the planet that’s had a few disruptive elections, including the EU BTW. Making generational decisions over one presidential cycle is rather short sighted.

And if Trump had just faded into obscurity after 2021 we probably wouldn't see this kind of realignment, but the fact he got reelected makes it look much less like a fluke and more like an USA that's increasingly unreliable on the international stage

Not giving you what you want != unreliable. It’s been extremely reliable for folks that want other things.

Re: EU chief opens door for Canada to become 'associate member'

#326

Post by mytailorisrich »

FabCH wrote: post #106
neom wrote: post #75

No idea what this actually means, if it means easier trade, I'm all for anything that reduces our dependency on the yanks, as long as we don't need to be involved in their regulatory or legal regimes. The Americans are no longer our friends, Salut, mes amis Européens. :)

Carney was asking for freedom of movement of goods, people and services, but without full monetary and legislative integration. So, easier to sell stuff, easier to buy stuff, free to just travel to/from Canada/EU and work there with no extra paperwork, free to buy and sell service from Canada to EU and vice versa. No Euro, no vote in EU, no ECJ, no payments into each others budget. Tighter integration than UK, not as…

It has to be like Norway/Switzerland/Iceland or more to get any free movements of goods and services. Level of access goes hand in hand with integration in term of regulation, etc.

"Associate member" actually sounds like TIGHTER integration than Norway/Switzerland/Iceland, which are not members at all. Switzerland is not even in the EEA. It is a very bad term, actually as Canada cannot be an EU member (it isn't in Europe) and if they don't want or can't join the EEA then that leaves a Switzerland-like deal, which is purely bilateral.

Re: EU chief opens door for Canada to become 'associate member'

#328

Post by usrbinbash »

neom wrote: post #75

No idea what this actually means, if it means easier trade, I'm all for anything that reduces our dependency on the yanks, as long as we don't need to be involved in their regulatory or legal regimes. The Americans are no longer our friends, Salut, mes amis Européens. :)

Kinda like what Norway has, I'd imagine.

Eased travel and trade, but not full membership voting rights, etc. So basically, an extensive trade and economics agreement, with options to intensify relationships later on.

Good thing for both sides!

Re: EU chief opens door for Canada to become 'associate member'

#329

Post by microtonal »

graemep wrote: post #260
krzyk wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like what specifically? Only services come to mind. Any hardware is produced in Asia, in fabs that use equipment from Netherlands.

The hardware is produced in Asia but American controlled. its still a dependency on being supplied by American companies. "Only services" covers a lot of critically important things. Clouds services and payment systems, for example. Even just one American company like AWS could turn off a huge chunk of European economies. That is just tech. What about fuel? machinery. https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/e…

After decades of globalization, everyone is just extremely dependent on everyone.

I think hardware is a bit complicated by the way. A lot of hardware is also not US controlled. For instance ARM Holdings is British, Japanese, or global depending on how you look at it and quite a lot of vendors rely on ARM's reference designs. Europe also has a lot of important chip designers, but they are more focused on embedded systems and support chips, like NXP and ST Microelectronics.

"Only services" covers a lot of critically important things. Clouds services and payment systems, for example. Even just one American company like AWS could turn off a huge chunk of European economies.

Why European governments and increasingly companies are trying to move away to European alternatives. It all starts small, but e.g. a bunch of governments are already disentangling from Office. The sale of the maintainer of the Dutch DigiD infrastructure to a US company has been blocked (would have happened without any blockers a few years ago). Countries are reducing US arms purchases in favor of European alternatives.

It's like turning a mammoth tanker, but it is slowly happening.

Let's just hope we have critical mass before the right-wing populists take over, big tech has been intensively lobbying them in recent years [1]. So much 'for the people', like they always proclaim.

[1] https://www.brusselstimes.com/1916422/us-tech-giants-allying...

Re: EU chief opens door for Canada to become 'associate member'

#330

Post by LeBit »

krona wrote: post #42
noir_lord wrote: post #2

Good, if the middle power democracies don't align/work together they are going to get torn apart in the struggle between the US and China.

70% of Canadian exports are to the US. 6% to the EU. Why would e.g. Poland want to enter a trade war with the US on Canada's behalf?

Because the US is wreaking havoc world wide. The US cannot be trusted anymore.

Better remove the bandaid now then wait until you are screwed.

People now see China as the reliable partner. This will be a multigenerational change.

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