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Learning Programming in an Age of LLMs

blog.ploeh.dk

41–50 of 190 posts

Re: Learning Programming in an Age of LLMs

#41
I am starting to see how many developers actually need to re-learn programming in the age of LLMs.

A while back Claude went down in the middle of a somewhat frantic initial deployment of a product to production at a company where a friend of mine works. And suddenly nobody was able to do anything. Because nobody had actually read the code and had no idea how it worked.

So essentially: much of their day to day work now depends entirely on the availability of a couple of frontier LLMs.

Re: Learning Programming in an Age of LLMs

#42

IMHO, I think that it could be better if the question about how to learn programming in the age of LLMs were asked to someone who is learning now by using LLMs. Someone who learned programming thirty years ago can perhaps give you only one side of the coin, whereas someone learning today from scratch using LLMs could give you good advice on what the real difficulties are and where the main drawbacks lie. Combining bo…

>whereas someone learning today from scratch using LLMs could give you good advice on what the real difficulties are if we're talking about the LLM usage as described in the article, they can't do that by definition because they're not learning. You can replace the word "model" in the article with "guy I hired on fiver" and there would be no difference. They outsourced the building of a product. If you're having robo…

For example he could tell you about how the LLM destroyed the main database (source of data for him) and so you should prompt the LLMs for how to avoid losing all your data. Real experiences help but not painless.

Re: Learning Programming in an Age of LLMs

#43
post #17
post #8

I said this in different ways before and got shoveled because of the way I said it: None of us know how to farm, not even the chefs who cook for us at a restaurant or fast food joint, but we eat every day and nobody's going around making people feel guilty about not knowing how to till soil and sow seeds.. In programming and other creativity, most people's skills will [have to] change/evolve into managing, directing,…

> I said this in different ways before and got shoveled because of the way I said it Are you sure that was the problem? Because to me it seems like it’s the argument which doesn’t hold. You’re engaging in what is called a False Equivalence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence Those things are not the same. Crucially, the food you buy at the store or restaurant is heavily regulated, provenance established,…

> the food you buy at the store or restaurant is heavily regulated, provenance established, safety checks in place. When there’s a widespread issue, we have systems in place for recalls

I live in a country where those things are not regulated and you have to be really careful to not buy something that would send you to the hospital.

Re: Learning Programming in an Age of LLMs

#44
I still differentiate between code monkeys, coders, programmers, hackers and software developers/engineers. Software development is not coding alone, you need to follow best practices and principles to create a stable, maintainable and trustworthy product, one that _you_ or your company owns. Maybe "code monkeys" (which is a minority) are replaceable. But for now, LLM cannot have a wider vision for your products future. The willingness of building something durable is totally human. To make this possible professional software developers are still mandatory and they will be for a long time. And yes, I think is it possible to learn those best practice and principle without coding. But I think this is very hard and boring.

Re: Learning Programming in an Age of LLMs

#45
Programming education in the LLM era will be different from what it is now. Many of the learning methods emerging now are the practices of a "good senior programmer."

But realistically speaking, choosing LLM programming ultimately means pouring out an enormous amount of code, and it's difficult to verify all of it. Common sense says that if you produce 10,000 lines in an hour, you can't read all of it, and even if you do read it, you'd have to rewrite it. The problem is that LLM code differs from human abstraction. Or more precisely, it lacks a programmer's habits, so it's hard for me to maintain.

Clearly, programming in the LLM era will be different. The problem is that I can't get a sense of what that way of doing things actually is.

I think that low-priority frontend work will probably be handled by LLMs, while only complex animation work will be handled by humans, and humans will end up working only on things like payment modules, which are hard to fix if something actually goes wrong.

LLMs are now better at optimization than most people.

Re: Learning Programming in an Age of LLMs

#47
post #24
post #5

I'm the author of Python Crash Course, and I got this exact same email this week. I was thinking of writing a public response as well, because any attempt to sincerely answer these questions takes something along the lines of a full post. It's also worth a public response because many people who are getting into programming for the first time right now are asking variations of these same questions. > Do I think that…

> I think people can learn faster than they used to Agree, but that only applies for people who were experienced developers before AI took over. Let's see in 5-10 years what our caliber looks like when you skip the foundations.

If you’re just talking about learning a programming language I think you need to be quite judicious in your AI usage.

In my experience, people learn programming languages best by overcoming frustrating roadblocks. You often end up learning something important, even if it’s just about your mindset or approach, that landed you there. This is the difference between someone with a wet signature on their comp sci diploma and someone with a few years under their belt.

A lot of people start with tutorials and cargo-cult their way through solving their first problems, but eventually need to learn how to do things the tutorial code can’t. It seems like the AI coding tools can could perpetually make things that could be bashed together well enough to sorta solve a problem and think “oh I’ll just learn about that later,” and then never learn about it at all. If your goal is to make some quick tool to help you with something at work in a different field, well, touchdown. If you’re trying to learn the language, fail.

Re: Learning Programming in an Age of LLMs

#48
post #40
post #5

I'm the author of Python Crash Course, and I got this exact same email this week. I was thinking of writing a public response as well, because any attempt to sincerely answer these questions takes something along the lines of a full post. It's also worth a public response because many people who are getting into programming for the first time right now are asking variations of these same questions. > Do I think that…

> Just five years ago, the only way to build a working project of moderate complexity was to learn the basic to intermediate concepts required to make an MVP. > Now, if you can steer an LLM reasonably well, you can quickly build an MVP that goes well beyond your own understanding of the implementation. Somewhat agree. Five years ago you could build an MVP without understanding how to open TCP sockets or how to parse…

That’s the power of abstraction when there’s a good API around something to hide the internal that doesn’t matter much at an higher level. You only need ‘open’ and ‘read’ instead of dealing with disk access and file system trasversal.

But those abstraction are deterministic in nature, so there’s a very good guarantee of their behavior. Someone using LLM and not caring about the generated code is just asking for trouble. The code may work, but there’s no guarantee about its behavior (including error handling and edge cases).

Re: Learning Programming in an Age of LLMs

#49
Recently I start to do some hobby project by learning Common Lisp to understand more about the libraries I used on app

I read the document and sometimes use LLM as a quick search engine because I am tired of every query on google that use AI to summarize

The project goes slowly but seems the basics I grasped over the years help a lot

So perhaps it still worth to learn by hand with trial and fail

I agreed with the author that one must learn deep above the abstraction and I truely think programming still a thing even the agentic coding is getting powerful

Re: Learning Programming in an Age of LLMs

#50
AI LLM systems, i.e. perplexity.ai, are very good at tutoring someone about how something works, i.e. advanced math, and when done in a loop can be very useful at tutoring, better than youtube videos I've seen on the same subject. The one thing I will usually request in (in the case of math), is to suffix the prompt with "explain this in terms a 9th grader would understand", and this is good enough to explain something in simpler terms with various breakdowns that can be understood by anyone to tutor yourself in alot of subjects using this method. This can be applied to programming, auto repair, construction, almost any subject at this point.
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