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Let's make quality the norm again

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Re: Let's make quality the norm again

#331

Post by WalterBright »

saturn8601 wrote: post #309
WalterBright wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet it's socialism that has a reputation for shoddy products. How many people want to buy a Lada?

Everyday I am reminded about these brain dead arguments in my local town by people who can't think one step ahead. You made this generalized statement probably from some propaganda you've read or some trauma you've experienced growing up. Yet, if you look at the current state of the situation its in clear decline. The only ways forward are to accelerate the decline and live with the consequences (ie. doing nothing) o…

I have a couple friends who grew up in the USSR. They'd laugh at your contention that socialism makes better products. They both moved to America to get away from socialism.

Socialism has never worked out very well.

As for loyalty, I am a true blue American and vote in the country's best interests.

> European style regulations

Yah, read my other post about experiences with Mercedes "quality".

Re: Let's make quality the norm again

#332

Post by Jaygles »

toofy wrote: post #329
xingped wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is quite common and is usually referred to as "it's expensive to be poor". That said, unfortunately these days it's very difficult to know which brands are still actually quality anymore and which are the ones still coasting on previous good engineering reputation while currently shipping substandard crap to make an extra buck for the bean counters in charge before the ship sinks.

i think the only solution to this is to force a company to rebrand when they purchase a brand. otherwise we end up exactly where we are, private equity buying out a brand, obfuscating that it’s no longer the same company, slowly sucking the life out of the product and screwing the public over. if we make them always rebrand, we would at least be more aware when purchasing. it’s kind of funny how certain people will t…

I'd be for forcing companies to list the top-level "owning" entity on all product labels

Re: Let's make quality the norm again

#333

Post by WalterBright »

saturn8601 wrote: post #309
WalterBright wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet it's socialism that has a reputation for shoddy products. How many people want to buy a Lada?

Everyday I am reminded about these brain dead arguments in my local town by people who can't think one step ahead. You made this generalized statement probably from some propaganda you've read or some trauma you've experienced growing up. Yet, if you look at the current state of the situation its in clear decline. The only ways forward are to accelerate the decline and live with the consequences (ie. doing nothing) o…

> only to have that progress stymied by endless amount of money pouring in on the other side

Hillary outspent Trump 2 to 1.

Kamala outspent Trump 2 to 1.

> Cuban immigrants opposed to Universal healthcare or eastern european immigrants opposed to anything with the word [commun/social]ist

Why do you discount their experience with universal healthcare? Have you ever experienced it?

Re: Let's make quality the norm again

#334

Post by jaggederest »

Maxatar wrote: post #255
narag wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you don't buy from China directly, you can't prevent local brands outsourcing their production, because all of them do It.

This is entirely untrue. Almost anywhere you live in the U.S. you can find local brands with local production.

Where can I find an oven made with entirely US parts (or even ~85-90%+)?

I'll tell you in advance that I haven't been able to locate one in a few years of looking. Most major appliances are, at best, 60-80% american with no accurate accounting, even if they're "assembled in the USA". Cars are the only thing with accurate sourcing labels due to legislation.

Re: Let's make quality the norm again

#335

Post by mikestew »

xingped wrote: post #158
jolt42 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think 10x is quite rare. Quality ends up actually curtailing costs to some degree (eg. fewer returns, cheaper marketing - word of mouth). Buy a Weber grill, I had 2 grills before my Weber that lasted 3 seasons between them. I bought the Weber at about 2.2x the cost of the bargain grills and 17 YEARS later it's still going strong, built like a tank. Saved a lot not buying more cheapo grills.

Yes, this is quite common and is usually referred to as "it's expensive to be poor". That said, unfortunately these days it's very difficult to know which brands are still actually quality anymore and which are the ones still coasting on previous good engineering reputation while currently shipping substandard crap to make an extra buck for the bean counters in charge before the ship sinks.

Ran into that with an Oxo coffee grinder recently. Old one died, bought the exact same one again. And that motor sounds just a little more tinny than the old one, and the whole thing seems just a little more...rattly than the old one. I am not exactly sure where they cut the corners, but corners were indeed cut. Oh, and the new one was $10 more, so the savings were most definitely not passed onto me.

Re: Let's make quality the norm again

#336

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

themaninthedark wrote: post #284
pif wrote: post #88

Quality was never the norm: cheap always beat quality with a hand tied behind his back! Western working class has spent decades complaining about cheap imports from China... while feeding that market with their own money. Western frequent fliers keep reminiscing about the grandiose pre-deregulation era or air travel, but cry a river when their low-cost carrier of choice actually enforces the limit on cabin baggage. E…

Really?! Yes, let's blame the working class for spending money on Chinese goods after their jobs were offshored and their spending power was decreased.

Appeals were made time after time to "Buy American!" as each manufacturing sector was offshored, first to Japan, then to China and the rest of Asia, but they were ignored by workers in other sectors. So, yes, you'd better believe the working class do not escape blame.

Re: Let's make quality the norm again

#337

Post by wj »

jolt42 wrote: post #150
piker wrote: post #3

While it does relate to price discovery--i.e., some folks just aren't willing to pay for an additional unit of quality at 10x--my theory is that the decline in quality is another hidden form of inflation. Thing continues to cost X even though regulations have increased costs Y, ship production to China and scrimp on the inputs. (Or have market forces do that for you.)

I think 10x is quite rare. Quality ends up actually curtailing costs to some degree (eg. fewer returns, cheaper marketing - word of mouth). Buy a Weber grill, I had 2 grills before my Weber that lasted 3 seasons between them. I bought the Weber at about 2.2x the cost of the bargain grills and 17 YEARS later it's still going strong, built like a tank. Saved a lot not buying more cheapo grills.

The Weber kettle grill is one of my favorite examples of quality in another way—function. It is built well but it also is such a wonderfully simple design that provides quite a bit of flexibility.

I have the Smokey Mountain which is amazing at holding heat but a total PIA to clean. Have one of their gas grills as well on a built in line, and it is fairly high quality also.

Nothing tops the kettle though.

Re: Let's make quality the norm again

#338

Post by marcus_holmes »

piker wrote: post #3

While it does relate to price discovery--i.e., some folks just aren't willing to pay for an additional unit of quality at 10x--my theory is that the decline in quality is another hidden form of inflation. Thing continues to cost X even though regulations have increased costs Y, ship production to China and scrimp on the inputs. (Or have market forces do that for you.)

It's part of the growth paradigm - that everything must continue to grow.

Let's say your product is mature. Your market is pretty much saturated; everyone who wants to use this product is using either yours or a competitor's. You and your competitors are finely balanced, you could reduce your prices and get more market share, but that wouldn't increase your profits. You have optimised your manufacturing process to the point where further efficiency would cut into resilience and create more risk than it would be worth.

Your shareholders demand growth. Doing the same numbers as last year is not good enough. So what do you do?

Reduce costs. Cut quality. Shrinkflate. Enshittify. Your customers won't notice immediately. Your competitors are also doing the same.

You only need this strategy to work for a couple of years until you can move on to another role, and consequences are something your successor will deal with. Meanwhile your shareholders are happy and your bonus is secure.

Re: Let's make quality the norm again

#339

Post by akoboldfrying »

LtWorf wrote: post #274
pif wrote: post #88

Quality was never the norm: cheap always beat quality with a hand tied behind his back! Western working class has spent decades complaining about cheap imports from China... while feeding that market with their own money. Western frequent fliers keep reminiscing about the grandiose pre-deregulation era or air travel, but cry a river when their low-cost carrier of choice actually enforces the limit on cabin baggage. E…

> Everybody hates ads, but no-one is willing to pay a penny for a service they use daily. Because paying a penny won't prevent ads or tracking.

Paying for an ad-free service will prevent ads.

Example: YouTube Premium.

Re: Let's make quality the norm again

#340

Post by coderenegade »

justonceokay wrote: post #289
piker wrote: post #3

While it does relate to price discovery--i.e., some folks just aren't willing to pay for an additional unit of quality at 10x--my theory is that the decline in quality is another hidden form of inflation. Thing continues to cost X even though regulations have increased costs Y, ship production to China and scrimp on the inputs. (Or have market forces do that for you.)

If you watch The Price is Right episodes from the 80s, it is clear that household items have only had mild inflation. Many items are prices a little lower than today but not outrageously so. On the other hand, the quality of the items is often much nicer. So someone might win a $500 desk, but that desk is hand-made out of hardwood. Today you can still buy a $500 desk but it will be IKEA quality. A product of comparab…

It's less clear cut than that, because modern materials can be better at the job they are designed for. An IKEA kitchen, for instance, might not use traditional wood or stone for its benchtops, but the materials used are actually better in terms of cleaning and handling food on them. It's just that these improvements often get bundled with cheap plastic and parts in other parts of the kitchen to keep costs down.

Similarly, cars today are far superior to old cars in terms of safety, and the gains that have been made on the engine side of things are nothing short of incredible. Every modern car is essentially a supercar by the standards of the 90s in terms of oomph per unit of displacement. The problem is that all of the systems have been coupled together, often needlessly, in order to improve telemetry and capture a bigger share of the used market. It's hostile towards the end user.

There's no question that the level of quality today is higher, especially where it matters. It's just that value extraction eventually turns hostile towards consumers in the absence of real competition and the need for endless growth.

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