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Building a Linux GPU Driver for the M4 Mac Mini in One Month

codyho.dev

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Re: Building a Linux GPU Driver for the M4 Mac Mini in One Month

#51

Post by cromka »

throw1234567891 wrote: post #48
ADevWithAnIdea wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great observation, two things: - During my time at Apple I never saw any of the macOS source code, at all, even for userspace components. I had not even heard of things like SPTM. - I have not worked there since June 2025 I don't believe that there's any risk due to my former Apple employment. As another example, WINE does not ban all former Microsoft employees, they just ban anyone who has ever looked at the Windows…

Have you consulted this with a lawyer, or is it what you simply think/believe.

I guess it's none of our business.

Re: Building a Linux GPU Driver for the M4 Mac Mini in One Month

#52

Post by MBCook »

ndiddy wrote: post #6

It's extremely impressive that they were able to make a working driver so quickly. I think this is one of the best use cases for LLMs. You don't need someone to spend years reverse engineering undocumented hardware anymore. It will interesting to see how good the driver the LLMs came up with is, and whether it can be upstreamed into the Linux kernel.

I’m sure it’s really easy when you can get help from the people who made the chip or write the Apple drivers.

Re: Building a Linux GPU Driver for the M4 Mac Mini in One Month

#53

Post by drnick1 »

MoltenMonster wrote: post #25

https://www.reddit.com/r/AsahiLinux/comments/1whecn1/comment... > The author was banned from Asahi Linux for hiding his extensive use of LLMs from us in another attempted contribution, and (more importantly) for concealing that he is a former Apple engineer with direct contacts to the people involved in Apple Silicon development. Make of this what you will.

If Apple open sourced its drivers this issue wouldn't exist. AI at last gives the "community" a chance to use the hardware they bought the way they want. It's unreasonable to expect anybody to code this kind of stuff "by hand" when automated tools exist.

Re: Building a Linux GPU Driver for the M4 Mac Mini in One Month

#54

Post by porphyra »

cromka wrote: post #47
porphyra wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very sad. I really want to get Linux on newer Apple chips working flawlessly but I can understand the legal minefield about this particular work.

Nobody does. We're only about to start settling it in courts, likely the supreme ones.

I meant I can understand the fact that a legal minefield exists.

I didn't mean that I understand the actual intricacies of the legal situation.

Sorry for my confusing wording.

Re: Building a Linux GPU Driver for the M4 Mac Mini in One Month

#55

Post by alightsoul »

MBCook wrote: post #50
alightsoul wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if this is the case, this is still a valuable contribution to learn upon.

It’s taint. Anyone who looks at it can’t work on a real open source driver because they will have had access to information they’re not supposed to. It won’t be clean room like the stuff Alyssa did.

Can't this be used to make a clean room implementation? Have someone write a spec then someone else who is unrelated, implement it from scratch?

Re: Building a Linux GPU Driver for the M4 Mac Mini in One Month

#56

Post by theoreticalmal »

MBCook wrote: post #50
alightsoul wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if this is the case, this is still a valuable contribution to learn upon.

It’s taint. Anyone who looks at it can’t work on a real open source driver because they will have had access to information they’re not supposed to. It won’t be clean room like the stuff Alyssa did.

That’s the most abstract and esoteric argument I’ve ever heard I think

Re: Building a Linux GPU Driver for the M4 Mac Mini in One Month

#57

Post by compiler-guy »

larpingscholar wrote: post #45
ADevWithAnIdea wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR: 1. We want to guarantee our work is not a "derivative work" of anything Apple wrote. 2. If we look at any Apple binaries, there's no way prove that our code didn't borrow from Apple. 3. Since we didn't look at any Apple binaries, then there's no way our work can be a derivative work-- we didn't even look at their stuff.

Wouldn't using OpenAI break the cleanroom?

That is the debate. And it is hotly contested.

The legal framework around all this is way too immature to make a definitive statement one way or the other. Anyone who says otherwise is speculating.

The only way to clarity will be legislation or court cases, because it really could go either way.

Re: Building a Linux GPU Driver for the M4 Mac Mini in One Month

#58

Post by MBCook »

theoreticalmal wrote: post #56
MBCook wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s taint. Anyone who looks at it can’t work on a real open source driver because they will have had access to information they’re not supposed to. It won’t be clean room like the stuff Alyssa did.

That’s the most abstract and esoteric argument I’ve ever heard I think

Wasn’t that exactly the legal standard Compaq had to prove when they did a clean room implementation of the IBM BIOS?

Re: Building a Linux GPU Driver for the M4 Mac Mini in One Month

#59

Post by danielheath »

alightsoul wrote: post #55
MBCook wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s taint. Anyone who looks at it can’t work on a real open source driver because they will have had access to information they’re not supposed to. It won’t be clean room like the stuff Alyssa did.

Can't this be used to make a clean room implementation? Have someone write a spec then someone else who is unrelated, implement it from scratch?

"Person A was under NDA, so we got them to pass their knowledge to person B, then had person B do the work - that's clean-room, right?"

Judges, as far as I know, do not generally take kindly to such arguments.

Re: Building a Linux GPU Driver for the M4 Mac Mini in One Month

#60

Post by doot »

cromka wrote: post #44
MoltenMonster wrote: post #25

https://www.reddit.com/r/AsahiLinux/comments/1whecn1/comment... > The author was banned from Asahi Linux for hiding his extensive use of LLMs from us in another attempted contribution, and (more importantly) for concealing that he is a former Apple engineer with direct contacts to the people involved in Apple Silicon development. Make of this what you will.

I find it extremely ironic that big corp openly steals IP en masse to build their models but hackers are still concerned about using same models for their reverse engineering work. I think at this point the hacking community needs to grow some balls.

Excited to see what you contribute to open source against one of the richest and most litigious companies in the world.
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