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The CSS Zen Garden dream, finally shipped

josprague.com

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Re: The CSS Zen Garden dream, finally shipped

#41

Post by cyberax »

whalesalad wrote: post #39
cyberax wrote: post #21

Oh yeah. The fucking CSS Zen Garden. It started the trend that led to utter degradation of any usability in modern web interfaces. The idea was to make HTML decoupled from presentation, but the feeble CSS of that time could not express any real layouts. So very quickly web designers started to just hard-code pixel widths into the CSS, removing any dynamic sizing. For example, on this very page: https://csszengarden.c…

Umm... this is disingenuous. At the time, most websites were built using tables and were completely non-accessible. One of the reasons we moved to XHTML, semantic markup, CSS instead of Tables... was to enable accessibility.

No, it's not disingenious. Tables _were_ accessible and easily navigable, including by screen readers. They are also a very logical way of organizing content.

> One of the reasons we moved to XHTML, semantic markup, CSS instead of Tables... was to enable accessibility.

Again, nope. Try a design with 3-4 columns with the old CSS and see how it behaves. The order of elements in the HTML often differs from the visual order, confusing the readers.

It also breaks tab-navigation, even the https://csszengarden.com/ has the "View All Designs" button that is inaccessible.

Then add absolutely-positioned headers and other popular CSS patterns.

Re: The CSS Zen Garden dream, finally shipped

#42

Post by settsu »

yosito wrote: post #2

Author here. Like a lot of people on HN, Dave Shea's CSS Zen Garden is how I learned CSS in the first place. Building stylesheets for that one HTML file taught me to think about CSS as a system, and it stuck. Nearly two decades later I got to build the design system for the new Firefox.com together with a team from Lincoln Loop, on a contract engagement with Mozilla using pure, modern CSS with no preprocessors (almos…

I too was strongly inspired by the ideas that CSS Zen Garden was promoting, even if little to none of the real world work looked or worked like that.

Always weird to see what posts really bring out the negativity on HN, but pay that no mind. Some people can't stand others being happy (and some are just having a bad day...)

Be proud of what you accomplished and it must feel great to have contributed to something like Firefox!

Re: The CSS Zen Garden dream, finally shipped

#43

Post by darlachaps »

Latty wrote: post #36
throwitaway222 wrote: post #34

CSS Zen Garden in the era of agentic software development.... I would say we're at a point where if the entire site was developed in tables or CSS or a Rust based engine emitting wasm positioned elements - no one would care anymore. Just give me a view and let me operate on things. We're going to have our "LCARS" moment soon. Where no one really needs to create a UI - the system creates one for you at time of use - b…

People say stuff like this and just... do you never think about accessibility? Have you never experienced stuff changing the UI under your feet and how incredibly annoying and flow-breaking it is? It reminds me of people wanting Hollywood UIs that would obviously suck to actually use. Just completely ignoring the reality of using what you are suggesting.

People with AI Delusion Syndrome don’t really concern themselves with reality or other people. They’ve literally lost the plot in life under a grand delusion of corporate bootlicking.

Re: The CSS Zen Garden dream, finally shipped

#44

Post by mpalmer »

settsu wrote: post #40
muglug wrote: post #5

> There’s one honest footnote. I'm so tired of AI writing

I get the sentiment, but what if it was the difference between not getting the thoughts out there and being able to celebrate the fruits of their labor? It's okay to exercise nuanced views (as well as choosing to say nothing.)

    what if it was the difference between not getting the thoughts out there and being able to celebrate the fruits of their labor?
I'm sure I don't know what implausible hypothetical scenario to which this could refer.

The "difference" is that of spending five entire minutes proofreading the output. But this blog post, like the other 98%, is once more the tasteless fruit of very, very little labor. Whether you value it or not, whether you are even able to recognize it anymore, writing for an audience is a skill.

I (and probably GP) feel legitimate dismay when I read the output of someone who had an obvious opportunity to exercise good taste for the benefit of the people who actually take the time to read it.

The continued inconvenience to you of reading opinions like this is obviously extremely unfortunate.

Re: The CSS Zen Garden dream, finally shipped

#45

Post by cindyllm »

darlachaps wrote: post #43
Latty wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People say stuff like this and just... do you never think about accessibility? Have you never experienced stuff changing the UI under your feet and how incredibly annoying and flow-breaking it is? It reminds me of people wanting Hollywood UIs that would obviously suck to actually use. Just completely ignoring the reality of using what you are suggesting.

People with AI Delusion Syndrome don’t really concern themselves with reality or other people. They’ve literally lost the plot in life under a grand delusion of corporate bootlicking.

[dead]

Re: The CSS Zen Garden dream, finally shipped

#46

Post by grebc »

Latty wrote: post #36
throwitaway222 wrote: post #34

CSS Zen Garden in the era of agentic software development.... I would say we're at a point where if the entire site was developed in tables or CSS or a Rust based engine emitting wasm positioned elements - no one would care anymore. Just give me a view and let me operate on things. We're going to have our "LCARS" moment soon. Where no one really needs to create a UI - the system creates one for you at time of use - b…

People say stuff like this and just... do you never think about accessibility? Have you never experienced stuff changing the UI under your feet and how incredibly annoying and flow-breaking it is? It reminds me of people wanting Hollywood UIs that would obviously suck to actually use. Just completely ignoring the reality of using what you are suggesting.

You’re replying to a bot sadly.

Re: The CSS Zen Garden dream, finally shipped

#47

Post by [deleted] »

throwitaway222 wrote: post #34

CSS Zen Garden in the era of agentic software development.... I would say we're at a point where if the entire site was developed in tables or CSS or a Rust based engine emitting wasm positioned elements - no one would care anymore. Just give me a view and let me operate on things. We're going to have our "LCARS" moment soon. Where no one really needs to create a UI - the system creates one for you at time of use - b…

[deleted]

Re: The CSS Zen Garden dream, finally shipped

#48

Post by agos »

cyberax wrote: post #41
whalesalad wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm... this is disingenuous. At the time, most websites were built using tables and were completely non-accessible. One of the reasons we moved to XHTML, semantic markup, CSS instead of Tables... was to enable accessibility.

No, it's not disingenious. Tables _were_ accessible and easily navigable, including by screen readers. They are also a very logical way of organizing content. > One of the reasons we moved to XHTML, semantic markup, CSS instead of Tables... was to enable accessibility. Again, nope. Try a design with 3-4 columns with the old CSS and see how it behaves. The order of elements in the HTML often differs from the visual or…

tables are a very logical way of organizing _tabular_ content. they're a terrible tool for layout, accessibility wise

Re: The CSS Zen Garden dream, finally shipped

#49

Post by cyberax »

agos wrote: post #48
cyberax wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not disingenious. Tables _were_ accessible and easily navigable, including by screen readers. They are also a very logical way of organizing content. > One of the reasons we moved to XHTML, semantic markup, CSS instead of Tables... was to enable accessibility. Again, nope. Try a design with 3-4 columns with the old CSS and see how it behaves. The order of elements in the HTML often differs from the visual or…

tables are a very logical way of organizing _tabular_ content. they're a terrible tool for layout, accessibility wise

No, they're not. They are _perfect_ for layouts, as they naturally support "move left/move right/up/down" directions.

To this day, this is STILL not working well for DIV-based designs.

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