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Most people prefer traditional architecture

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Re: Most people prefer traditional architecture

#131
post #3

> Respondents preferred the traditional design by 74 percent to 26 percent. There was almost no variation by social class, and only modest variation by political party. Older people were, as in most studies, more traditional than younger people, but even 18–24s still preferred the traditional design by 61 to 39 percent. I might be missing something but isn't this all a bit of a no-brainer? In the old days, buildings…

https://www.habitat67.com/en/

I find the Habitat67 brutalist apartment complex in Montreal to be tasteful and livable?

Re: Most people prefer traditional architecture

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The missing part is that traditional building used to be cheap (in fact the cheapest way of building things). What changed is labour costs in western countries relative to the cost of materials and other physical things

> The missing part is that traditional building used to be cheap (in fact the cheapest way of building things). This is only partially true. Traditional building used to be cheaper than it is now, yes, but things like ornate decorations and facades were still expensive additional work. It's worth considering the survivorship bias here - the traditional buildings people know and love are the ones that were well built…

> but things like ornate decorations and facades were still expensive additional work

This again, is partially true. A lot of ornamental decorative elements in public facades were, essentially, mass produced using molds --- very few were hand-made in the way they are done now.

They would degrade over time, however they could also be repaired or replaced relatively easily.

Your point about survivorship bias is also somewhat more nuanced. The buildings that have survived were often, as you said, made with more expensive materials, and they lasted longer; but there was also a change in tastes over time, in particular against ornament and decorative elements, and a change in the idea that certain buildings should be maintained. In the past, people were just way more accepting of tearing down or replacing buildings. Conservation as a general approach was not as common, nor were people as inclined to see certain buildings in particular as uniquely worthy of conservation. It is those buildings which were deemed "appropriate" for conservation and "historically significant" which have largely shaped our understanding of "traditional" architecture, a somewhat snapshot idea of architecture on the cusp of modernism,

Re: Most people prefer traditional architecture

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Industrial modernism is an aesthetic of distance, abstraction, predictability, and containment. But the flip side isn't anti-modernism, it's mass-market kitsch, which is at least as ugly. Minimalism isn't bad on its own, and the best minimal design really is beautiful. But the abstraction and containment went too far, and the result is often functional (on a good day) and joyless even if it's a prestige product. And…

> But the flip side isn't anti-modernism, it's mass-market kitsch, which is at least as ugly. It's far more common than it should be. > The worst is block sprawl and suburban slop - endless subdued and constrained repetitions of the same thing, with very minor variations. The economic of bathtub curves incentivises designs nobody hates, even if at the cost of nobody loving them.

The bathtub curve is not the most optimal however.

I mean look at the ecology of our world. What do you see out there when you look outside? Solely some lumbering generalist beast doing not good and not too bad taking up all the energy that comes off our sun?

Absolutely not. The opposite happens. The generalist tends to die out, outcompeted by the litany of specialists who better occupy the specific niches the generalist attempts to fill.

Left to its own devices, the market ought to look like this: hyperspecialized at all scales and levels such that every demand is maximally occupied by the most efficient manner to serve that demand. One might ask instead what artificial constraints are allowing a generalist to emerge and not be swallowed up by the sum weight of the countless specialists who are more optimal at every possible thing?

Re: Most people prefer traditional architecture

#134
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something fascinating that you may not know: traditional architecture is one of those things that is simultaneously: a) Genuinely widely preferred, with many articles on this, ranging from aesthetic preferences through to scientific studies of how eyes move and what causes fatigue. There is genuine value to architecture before modern architecture -- and... b) A stalking horse for right-wing thinking. It's really inte…

I'm kind of counting on normal being in the minority here.

Abnormal isn't distributed along a single axis.

Re: Most people prefer traditional architecture

#135
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something fascinating that you may not know: traditional architecture is one of those things that is simultaneously: a) Genuinely widely preferred, with many articles on this, ranging from aesthetic preferences through to scientific studies of how eyes move and what causes fatigue. There is genuine value to architecture before modern architecture -- and... b) A stalking horse for right-wing thinking. It's really inte…

> That is condescending, makes normal people feel unheard, and then when someone does hear them on the innocuous subject And that is why all the pollsters were caught flat-footed by Trump in 2016. The people who did feel unheard learned to not respond.

> The people who did feel unheard learned to not respond

When politics exclude a group, or a group feels excluded, it's easy to lure the group into supporting anti-politics, which is a nice way to say "fascism".

This is kind of where we are now, with the far-right preying on the most vulnerable people that feel ignored by politicians.

Re: Most people prefer traditional architecture

#137

Perhaps there’s a difference between what people prefer looking at and what’s actually nicer to inhabit? Architecture is optimizing for people inhabiting the building, not just staring at it in a photograph. It’s like if you asked someone to judge a phone based on a photo. Yes there’s some aesthetic judgement but it matters more if the phone is usable. I know that personally I find New York’s prewar buildings more be…

Architecture is about optimizing for people inhabiting the city. Cities with detailed human-scale architecture at the lowest few floors are nicer to live in. You can still have a city full of soulless luxury towers, as long as you avoid cheap hostile architecture in places pedestrians can't avoid looking at.

Re: Most people prefer traditional architecture

#138
post #75

Now try 1970s public housing in Paris and Vienna, socialist blocks in Poland or projects in Chicago. It will be a lot more balanced because these places were designed for people to live in, not as radical statements. They are simple to save costs but there is no "artistic" movement behind them doing it on purpose. Abstract modernism with random shapes and obsessively minimalist design is only the worst case scenario…

The results will absolutely be the same. Having spent the first 12 years of my life in a commie block apartment, the absolute best thing that has happened to that building over the years is the trees have covered progressively more of the ugliness. Note that this article is about external visuals, not the layout or any other consideration relevant to buildings being "designed for people to live in". This is about bui…

> one of them has slightly more classical style of architecture

If aesthetic sense is distributed according a bell curve, the majority of the population will have "average" taste. If you say good taste is one standard deviation above the median, then the majority will have worse taste.

Re: Most people prefer traditional architecture

#139

When I was a child I saw Blade Runner. Ever since that day I've had a weakness for concrete jungles. Tokyo, Singapore, Shanghai- that's how humans were intended to live. Unfortunately my European brothers and sisters prefer to live in open air museums. However slowly but surely skyscrapers have been creeping up into the Netherlands- you just can't beat the efficiency.

> ... that's how humans were intended to live Humans weren't meant to be packed like ants. Wrong species.

Ants pack themselves.

Re: Most people prefer traditional architecture

#140
post #3

> Respondents preferred the traditional design by 74 percent to 26 percent. There was almost no variation by social class, and only modest variation by political party. Older people were, as in most studies, more traditional than younger people, but even 18–24s still preferred the traditional design by 61 to 39 percent. I might be missing something but isn't this all a bit of a no-brainer? In the old days, buildings…

https://www.habitat67.com/en/ I find the Habitat67 brutalist apartment complex in Montreal to be tasteful and livable?

We need more of this.
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