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Java 27

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Re: Java 27

#201

Post by PaulHoule »

hirvi74 wrote: post #79
rwyinuse wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, with Spring Boot development is so easy, and even decade old projects are mostly easy to upgrade. I don't have experience from C# or .NET development, but at least compared to Python and especially JS ecosystems it's so much better.

> Python and especially JS ecosystems it's so much better. That's a pretty low bar to beat.

10 years ago I was working at a place that was building Python systems that had dependency graphs too complicated for pip to handle. I was able to solve the problem for my system with a "wheelhouse" system that could compute a list of wheels that could be installed to build it but the confidence of my team in Python had flagged.

I had a sheaf of notes about the problem and figured out the math to build a proper dependency resolver for Python and tested out a lot of ideas such as being able to use http range requests to get the metadata out of wheels on PyPi without having to download the whole wheel.

The problem I had no solution for though was "how to stop developers from trashing the environment that the dependency manager runs in." The data scientists I worked with had an astonishing target for wrecking anything at all. Myself I would have my poetry's environment got bad for reasons I didn't understand every few months ago.

I also found the Python community just didn't care that pip didn't really work right. The most seductive form of blub is "I can accept using things that fail intermittently." I got a job coding Java and Javascript and never built the package manager.

Then uv came along and managed to sell itself as "crazy fast" which did connect with people more than "correct". Written in rust, uv would have beaten my system in the fast department, and since it is a binary, there is no way anyone can screw up a Python it depends on -- as I see it, both technical and marketing genius!

Re: Java 27

#202

Post by ndriscoll »

saghm wrote: post #187
ndriscoll wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most engineers don't get to decide to use a language either. Usually someone with the clout to pick a language has the clout to set style requirements too.

I don't disagree, but that sounds more like a response to the person asking "what's the argument for picking Java?" than one to the someone who finds "Have you tried not returning null or constructing incomplete objects?" and "Why don't you have any coding standards?" to be poor takes.

If someone's asking "why Java" or is saying nulls make it a hard no, then you'd assume that they have a choice in the first place, which generally means they also have some ability to set coding standards at the same time that they're choosing a language.

Scala technically allows you to use nulls or throw exceptions pretty much wherever (necessary for Java compatibility), but it's not an issue because people simply don't outside of super niche situations (generally some low-level thing, or a shim). Similar to `unsafe` in Rust. Or casts in all sorts of languages.

Re: Java 27

#205

Post by pron »

ssimpson wrote: post #179
misiek08 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that Go lacks in those is just showing how people are making software those days. It’s just terrifying. As to Rust - we all, hopefully, agree that it’s great language, but not for some startup making websites or Mongo based, boring backends. It’s great for the stable, system level products.

and the costs they are willing to pay. Go/Rust just kill everything else (except maybe C++) for performance and resource needs. JVM requires so many resources just to run small apps.

Quite the opposite, and the reason is that you can't extrapolate from small programs to large ones. Low-level languages (like C++) incur some significant overheads as they grow large (because of essential constraints of low-level languages that prevent them from doing certain optimisations that matter mostly in large programs), and these are exactly the overheads the JVM is designed to reduce. In small or short-lived programs, the situation is different, because Java does have some warmup costs and some fixed memory overheads that matter when you're small or short-lived. Go's compiler and GC are pretty basic, and are certainly good enough for smaller things, but don't scale as well to high workloads. Just the other day a colleague tested Caffeine, an old and well-established Java caching library, and Moka, a Rust caching library with the same workload. Caffeine had the same latency as Moka across all percentiles at twice the throughput.

Re: Java 27

#206

Post by paulsen »

gtadesktop1 wrote: post #203
paulsen wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do I need Kotlin, or Python, or C when Assembly is enough?

Yes true point. But why use Java? I mean you said another language that is an alternative for Java.

Well, ask yourself this, why use a hammer to drive a nail when a rock can do about the same?

Same reasoning here, Java is "enough" in of a lot of areas that make it desirable for a lot of things, it is fast enough, stable enough, has lots of libraries and apis for a lot of things you may want to do, and the jvm makes it reasonably portable, among other things.

Re: Java 27

#207

Post by [deleted] »

rohan_ wrote: post #172
pron wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These days, Java is mostly used in greenfield software that has to be very reliable, very performant, and last for many years. So it's often the first choice for banking, telecom, finance, government, defence, manufacturing control, logistics and shipping, media streaming, retail, hospitality, healthcare etc.. It's usually not a first pick for more exciting software, such as Python type checkers, JS bundlers, or TUI…

This is quite the take - i doubt most startups building in these spaces are using Java.

[deleted]

Re: Java 27

#208

Post by za3faran »

PaulHoule wrote: post #183
moomin wrote: post #5

C# dev here: it’s amazing how different this is from a Microsoft release. First off, Oracle are doing versions at approximately twice the cadence. But also, and I’m guessing this is a function of the much larger Java audience: things rarely get two preview versions in a proper release. Updates in beta versions, yes, all the time. It also feels like Microsoft are bundling a lot more into the platform and leaving less…

One difference I think about is generics. Java and .NET bolted generics on to an existing system. Java used type erasure in such a way that a List is really just a List. Type erasure has a lot of limitations. If I am coding in Java for days I never get into trouble with it because I know how to color in the lines. But do some balls-to-the-walls metaprogramming and then it is annoying that you can't write Expression a…

This should address your example https://openjdk.org/jeps/218

Re: Java 27

#210

Post by throw34234 »

ndriscoll wrote: post #120
saghm wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most engineers do not have the ability to impose rules by fiat on all of their coworkers. It seems like you're misunderstanding the nature of working on a codebase as an IC when other developers contribute to it. If all of my coworkers don't want a lint rule I propose, I don't get to add it. If all of my other coworkers want to write code in a certain way and approve each other's MRs with code written in that way, I…

Most engineers don't get to decide to use a language either. Usually someone with the clout to pick a language has the clout to set style requirements too.

They do get to decide which jobs they take. And the languages involved are one of the easiest filters. A lot easier than checking whether the code a company actually writes is any good.

Theoretically you don’t need to write AbstractFactoryProvider in Java, but looking at languages mentioned in job offers, I have a pretty good idea of which of them have a high probability of working with such code and which do not, even if all of them say they have the best code ever.

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