Live data from Hacker News

Global bond yields hit 2008 highs, raising stakes for big borrowers

reuters.com

81–90 of 185 posts

Re: Global bond yields hit 2008 highs, raising stakes for big borrowers

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't the debt levels that are causing the rates to spike, rather the start of the emerging Bretton Woods III era.

Could you be a bit more specific about what you think "Bretton Woods III" is?

Not sure what GP meant, but I found this googling that term: https://static.bullionstar.com/blogs/uploads/2022/03/Bretton...

Re: Global bond yields hit 2008 highs, raising stakes for big borrowers

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eliminate candidates who promise to lower taxes (slows down debt repayment substantially) and those who promise new or expanded services. Who's left? "I'll tax you a little more and not spend that money" is a tough pitch, even if it would be helpful for the debt. I think Clinton was the last us president to balance the budget and start reducing the deficit so I guess see what he did.

See what Clinton did? Well, he said he'd create a plan to balance the budget. And he did. It was a ten-year plan, and it involved doing very little for the first eight years, and then doing the real work in years nine and ten - that is, after Clinton was out of office, even if he got a second term. Then 1994 happened, and the Contract With America. The Republicans took both the House and the Senate, and they passed a…

So all we have to do is engineer a scenario where one party screws over the other one by accidentally doing good governance.

Or just hurry up and invent ASI and let it be someone else's problem to take care of this crazy human zoo.

Re: Global bond yields hit 2008 highs, raising stakes for big borrowers

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well just as bad for international lenders as inflation is the devaluation [1] that Trump intentionally caused. We have the worst deficits ever, zero appetite for even acknowledging that the record deficits exist, and only massive plans for double digit percentage increases in the deficit on the tab (e.g. increasing military spending to $1.5T from $1T/year) It was a mad strategy to both cause more inflation with over…

There is no way to grow the US economy due to structural demographics except immigration levels the US electorate is unwilling to accept. We have long ago exceeded the debt we could accumulate based on the future growth curve inherent to the prime working age cohort. The credit card of young workers and a growing population ("demographic dividend" in demographics parlance) has hit its limit to spend against, broadly…

> There is no way to grow the US economy

AI and robotics.

Engineering is becoming cheaper.

Graphics design is becoming cheaper.

Lawyering is becoming cheaper.

Entertainment, film, and gaming (not hardware) is becoming cheaper.

This will eventually hit manufacturing and logistics and critical inputs.

We'll be able to have an entire robotic supply chain domestically save for raw materials.

It will hit drug design and medicine. Physics and materials science.

We'll increase the supply of energy, develop cheaper and more cost effective transportation.

The improvements will pay dividends. They'll buy further improvements.

Re: Global bond yields hit 2008 highs, raising stakes for big borrowers

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well just as bad for international lenders as inflation is the devaluation [1] that Trump intentionally caused. We have the worst deficits ever, zero appetite for even acknowledging that the record deficits exist, and only massive plans for double digit percentage increases in the deficit on the tab (e.g. increasing military spending to $1.5T from $1T/year) It was a mad strategy to both cause more inflation with over…

There is no way to grow the US economy due to structural demographics except immigration levels the US electorate is unwilling to accept. We have long ago exceeded the debt we could accumulate based on the future growth curve inherent to the prime working age cohort. The credit card of young workers and a growing population ("demographic dividend" in demographics parlance) has hit its limit to spend against, broadly…

The self-destructiveness of the current regime in the US is astounding. Through control of media channels, a cabal gained power via fear mongering and false narratives, with the hope of wealth through corruption once in power. But the vehicle that drove them to power is now headed off a financial cliff and there's no one at the wheel that can steer.

Re: Global bond yields hit 2008 highs, raising stakes for big borrowers

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working is an interesting term (which I agree with btw) because place like Japan with debt at 200%+ of gdp, rates rising are going to annihilate spending in other important areas. Maybe we should vote for people who are financially literate, can think long term, and can "conserve" rather than politicians who promise endlessly?

> Maybe we should vote for people who are financially literate, can think long term, and can "conserve" rather than politicians who promise endlessly? Who could you vote for, in any democracy, that would fit this? Also, how many voters would have the wherewithal to identify such a person?

I think democracy is perhaps a fundamentally unstable system. It requires constant corrective force, and a lot of it, from a lot of people. When the members of that democracy start to get a little too comfortable it fails.

Humans are designed to operate in smallish clans with benevolent dictators whose right to rule is based on social currency with people they personally know. Anything else is a house of cards on unstable foundation.

I'm not sure how you fix that, but democracy so far has maybe been the least bad patch.

Re: Global bond yields hit 2008 highs, raising stakes for big borrowers

#86
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Debt service costs as a percent of GDP are in fact lower than they were in the 1980's This is an amazing use of the "in fact" trope, in exactly the same misleading way[1]. I talked about debt, and you casually shifted to servicing costs which presumes that rates stay historically low...when they're actually rapidly rising. Comical. In the 1980s, the debt to GDP ratio was less than half what it currently is. Rates w…

You're doubling down with more hyperbole. What's the policy suggestion? What do you propose to cut? Where do you propose to find new revenue? What compromises are you willing to make to other priorities and what stands are you taking on which you won't budge? Shouting about deficits is, to be blunt, just crack for the incurious mind. It's a party you're throwing for people who agree with you. Refusing to treat with t…

> What do you propose to cut? Where do you propose to find new revenue?

I'm not American, and no one needs to "save me". The country is a fucking idiocracy, and you elected a fascist self-dealing conman pedophile rapist. I pointed out objective, indisputable reality and you responded with some farcical lies and pearl clutching nonsense.

But you know, when your country is bankrupt, increasing military spending $600B, paying for endless vanity projects for that disgusting bag of shit to emblazon his shameful name on your country for eternity, or even entertaining the disgusting "bribe the population" farce is just fantasy.

Endlessly giving tax cuts and breaks to your kleptocracy/plutocrat class...maybe an incredibly stupid thing to do, no?

Nah, something something 1980s nothing we can do hey let's build an arch to celebrate the most catastrophically destructive president in history!

Re: Global bond yields hit 2008 highs, raising stakes for big borrowers

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is 0 risk to getting repaid from the US. We will print for the lenders the exact amount they are promised. Promises kept. All is good

I feel like there is an inside joke here, so I apologize if I am being a bit spectrum-y taking it at face value. Every sovereign can print money and repay lenders, but doing so cause an inflationary cycle. When it looks like that is inevitable, borrowing rates start spiralling, so you have to print more money, and soon you are Zimbabwe. Like the US is catastrophically indebted -- both parties have been negligent on t…

The math that isn't mathing is that GDP needs to stop being the number we look at. Goodhart's Law says that "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure." and GDP is no exception. If I pay a cleaner $200 to clean my home, that's $200 into the GDP. If I do it myself, that's not reflected in the GDP. If I buy a robot maid, pay for it once, and it cleans my apartment for me, thats an ongoing quality of life improvement that's not going to be reflected in the GDP. If that $50,000 robot maid frees up 10 hours/week for me to do other stuff, GDP might actually fall instead of rise.

Re: Global bond yields hit 2008 highs, raising stakes for big borrowers

#88
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you be a bit more specific about what you think "Bretton Woods III" is?

Not sure what GP meant, but I found this googling that term: https://static.bullionstar.com/blogs/uploads/2022/03/Bretton...

This is indeed what I meant.

Re: Global bond yields hit 2008 highs, raising stakes for big borrowers

#89
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to grow the US economy due to structural demographics except immigration levels the US electorate is unwilling to accept. We have long ago exceeded the debt we could accumulate based on the future growth curve inherent to the prime working age cohort. The credit card of young workers and a growing population ("demographic dividend" in demographics parlance) has hit its limit to spend against, broadly…

> There is no way to grow the US economy AI and robotics. Engineering is becoming cheaper. Graphics design is becoming cheaper. Lawyering is becoming cheaper. Entertainment, film, and gaming (not hardware) is becoming cheaper. This will eventually hit manufacturing and logistics and critical inputs. We'll be able to have an entire robotic supply chain domestically save for raw materials. It will hit drug design and m…

Provide a date and resolution criteria, I'll bet you $10k to a charity of the winner's choice via longbets.org. This is cope imho. Words are cheap. We'll get this about the same time as Full Self Driving ("Supervised"). "3 months maybe, 6 months definitely." [1] Your comment is hopeful sci-fi aspirations, without any guarantees.

[1] https://x.com/elonmusk/status/823727035088416768 - January 23rd, 2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law ("The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.")

Re: Global bond yields hit 2008 highs, raising stakes for big borrowers

#90
post #2

Finally some evidence that the system is working. Most countries are borrowing like there's no tomorrow, so obviously rates should go up to compensate the risk of not paying back.

Working is an interesting term (which I agree with btw) because place like Japan with debt at 200%+ of gdp, rates rising are going to annihilate spending in other important areas. Maybe we should vote for people who are financially literate, can think long term, and can "conserve" rather than politicians who promise endlessly?

> Maybe we should vote for people who are financially literate, can think long term, and can "conserve" rather than politicians who promise endlessly?

Conservatives:

    +-------------------------+----------------------------------------+
    | President Name          | Deficit Increase (+) or Decrease (-)   |
    +-------------------------+----------------------------------------+
    | Donald Trump (2nd term) |                                    N/A |
    | Donald Trump (1st term) |                                 +11.1% |
    | George W. Bush          |                                  +4.3% |
    | George H. W. Bush       |                                  +1.8% |
    | Ronald Reagan           |                                  +0.5% |
    | Gerald Ford             |                                  +0.8% |
    | Richard Nixon           |                                  +0.7% |
    | Dwight D. Eisenhower    |                                  -1.8% |
    +-------------------------+----------------------------------------+
Liberals:

    +-------------------------+----------------------------------------+
    | President Name          | Deficit Increase (+) or Decrease (-)   |
    +-------------------------+----------------------------------------+
    | Joe Biden               |                                  -5.7% |
    | Barack Obama            |                                  -6.7% |
    | Bill Clinton            |                                  -6.1% |
    | Jimmy Carter            |                                  -0.1% |
    | Lyndon B. Johnson       |                                  +1.9% |
    +-------------------------+----------------------------------------+

Deficit rate = (federal outlays - federal receipts) / GDP. Change = deficit rate in final fiscal year - deficit rate in first fiscal year. The % symbol below means percentage points of GDP, not relative percent change. The first and last fiscal years whose end dates occurred during each presidency are used. Transition fiscal years can therefore span two administrations. Figures are OMB actuals through FY2025 and are rounded to 0.1%.
Post reply on HN