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People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

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Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don’t have closed eye visuals Nobody does, this is all unfalsifiable nonsense, it's an artifact of the language used to describe imagination.

Many people have such visuals, so I'm very curious as to what you mean here? I have really intense closed eye visuals during psilocybin trips that basically feel like the fabric of space and time unfolding and presenting itself in an all-encompassing ocean of geometric patterns and fractal-like structures. And sound can become images, and images can become sounds. This can be a really profound experience, and I can a…

I put some thought on this in this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49469729

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#282

I’ve worked as a professional photographer for twenty years and I visualize absolutely zero with my eyes closed. It’s only recently that I learned of aphantasia. Even on most psychedelic journeys I don’t have closed eye visuals, NN-DMT being the consistent exception. Everything is more of just a “knowingness”.

>I don’t have closed eye visuals Nobody does, this is all unfalsifiable nonsense, it's an artifact of the language used to describe imagination.

I agree that it's unfalsifiable - necessarily all discussions to do with interpretation of qualia are.

I think, however, that your reasoning is backwards. Language such as "picture this," "envision yourself on a beach," the concept of the "mind's eye," or especially the word "imagination" from "image" is much more likely to exist as a result of the actual process than to be its cause. Parsimony favors assuming that the description evolved from the experience - if nobody "saw" mental imagery, we would more readily describe the thought process as "thinking about," "reasoning around," that sort of thing.

The language used cannot be used as proof on its own. What makes me think this is more than a description problem is that reported vividness of imagery correlates to unconscious effects: pupils constrict to imagined bright shapes and dilate to imagined dark ones, scaled to how vivid the person says the image was[0]. People reporting aphantasia don't show those effects. Despite this not constituting "proof," I cannot rationalize it being a coincidence.

If it matters, I call myself aphantasic, though I cannot prove it to you. You may relate to my initial thought - "surely all this language is metaphor, and people don't really walk around hallucinating on command." Taking (the vast majority of) people at their word, however, indicates that they really do see things when they think about them - though visual mental imagery is meaningfully different from actually seeing (but is more like seeing than aphantasics assume). Refer to Galton's original 1880 study[1] for 150-year-old rationalizations that are the same as mine.

[0] https://elifesciences.org/articles/72484 [1] https://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Galton/imagery.htm

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#283
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick demonstration I sometimes use to tease out this distinction: “imagine a six-sided die. Are you imagining it? Good. How many dots are on the side closest to you?” If the phenomenal experience was the same and the difference is in the description, everyone should still be able to give a number as their answer, even if they have to use different processes to derive the number from their different descriptions. B…

This test implies that phantasiacs immediately lock down the full visual fidelity (the orientation of the die), before you specified it. Why would they? I find myself capable of imagining the die in superposition, same as I don't imagine any particular color it has or any surface it may rest on.

It need only require the phantasiac to lock down the die on request.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#284
Mnemotechnics is an art of memorizing by linking visual images. A book I have gives these criteria for a proper image:

you can roughly draw the object from memory

you can name its main parts

you can name its main colors

you can describe its spatial orientation

The image shouldn't be as clear as a hallucination, and it should be a memory of a specific object, not a generic one. Meeting these criteria is already enough to link another image to it, for example by piercing it with another object, though there's also the question of imagining it at a large enough size.

Aphants, do these hold for you? Take Doge, the popular meme dog: not a generic Shiba Inu, but that exact picture. Could you sketch it, name its parts and colors, and say which way it's facing? And could you imagine, say, a pencil piercing it?

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#285
post #249

I can't see pictures in my mind or hear anything. Feels very weird to know that it isn't standard for folks to be like me.

I just realized for the first time (like 1 minute ago, after reading this), that I also can't conjure up images in my head. If I close my eyes and try to visualize a cat, or a family member's face, I can't. Still have normal visual dreams though.

I dunno - seems normal to me! :)

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#286

Mnemotechnics is an art of memorizing by linking visual images. A book I have gives these criteria for a proper image: you can roughly draw the object from memory you can name its main parts you can name its main colors you can describe its spatial orientation The image shouldn't be as clear as a hallucination, and it should be a memory of a specific object, not a generic one. Meeting these criteria is already enough…

This is btw. a very important consideration when you are teaching literally anything.

Telling people to imagine a cone, then a plane, then rotating the other slightly and slice through the cone without touching the base, and then looking at a normal angle at the 2D shape of the resulting intersecting surface is a really good way to explain ellipses.

IF the person you're talking to can do all these steps. Turns out some people can rotate a cow in their head and some can't. If you cannot, a drawing or animation can help a lot to get the point across. Now I haven't gotten a problem with imagination at all, but I can only imagine how hard some subjects might be if you can't do that in your head.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#287
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you express you have aphantasia to someone, one of the most common questions is whether you can dream. As someone with it: Yes I can dream. They're so real they are lifelike. And not just visually. In my dreams, reality and history itself can be different and to me, history didn't change. It just is. I rememeber in one dream I was some sort of captain and I saw one of my closest friends. We'd been crewmates for…

That's fascinating. Do you gain access to facts or knowledge that are verifiable afterwards? Have you ever become fluent in a foreign language for a dream?

Within the confines of the dream? Yes? Outside of the dream? Once I'm awake it feels real for a moment but quickly snaps back that it was all fictitious

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#288

I still think this is fundamentally about how difficult it is to describe qualia.

I don't think so, since this is more just a matter of comparison... You know what it is like to see something for real, and can compare that to what it is like to imagine it.

I just realized that I can't imagine things and visualize a picture of it! If I try to imagine an apple, I've got nothing - although of course I know what one looks like. There is just zero mental imagery if I try to imagine one.

I just asked my daughter to imagine seeing an apple with her eyes closed, and she said yes she can see it. I asked what did she see "an apple sitting on a table". Did it have a color "yes it is red". I've got none of that - not even a fuzzy round grey thing. I know what it looks like but just can't/don't conjure up an image of it.

I don't even understand exactly what my daughter is experiencing. I said I just see dark when my eyes are closed - no image of an apple. She says she of course sees dark too, but there is also some experience of seeing an apple. I asked her to visualize something with her eyes open, and she can do that too (I guess this is normal), she still visualizes it, but somehow separate from the reality she is also seeing with her eyes open.

It seems pretty clear that what I experience, and what my daughter does, when trying (or succeeding) to visualize something are very different.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that? Honest question.

It stretches credulity that someone can occlude their vision with their imagination. Like, you are staring at a dog, you can't imagine a brick wall in front of it and not see the dog any more. Similarly you can't not see the back of your eyelids. Your imagination can kick in and your brain does $THINGS. But the back of your eyelid is still what you are seeing when you close your eyes.

Occluding vision seems extreme yes, but what do you mean when you say "it is just imaginary"?

What is an actual image?

I ask because you seem to dismiss the notion that some people have stronger inner images than others.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#290
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also aphantasic and dream normally. I have some intermittent ability to lucid dream. I have noticed that if I am acting as a "passenger", the imagery is vivid and I will be able to recall everything. Sometimes something in the dream will prompt me to think. It might be entering a phone number, or reading text. As soon as I engage the process of thinking, the imagery goes away. Long lucid dreams for me rely on me…

FWIW I’m exactly like you. My ability to replay music sometimes surprises me. Sometimes I’ll hear a song on the radio I haven’t heard in decades and be able to anticipate tiny details precisely (like, “here’s where the harmonica comes in in Karma Chameleon” or “here’s where the fretless bass is gonna bend a note”. You?

It comes as language to you? I just anticipate it as if a sound is playing in my mind?
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