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People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

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Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#261

Post by nodoodles »

thrw9876543 wrote: post #67

I thought that I'll never be able to tell what non-aphantasia people see and how they perceive things. I see full blackness with some noise, but I can't visualize a thing. This was until I tried some magic mushrooms (psilocybin as main ingredient) and I was shocked that with my eyes closed I was able to actually see things, mental imagery, objects, etc. After the effects wore off, the blackness has returned I couldn'…

I haven't tried mushrooms, but had some medical trouble and with very high fever + medications there was times of rathr vivid visualisation while awake which I never experience otherwise - full blackness as well.

Wouldn't recommend getting sepsis just for that though.. mushrooms seem safer

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#262

Post by nodoodles »

culopatin wrote: post #198

Aphantastic people of HN. Do you struggle remembering things in detail? My gfs family is all aohantastic and they just realized that it’s why they tell stories that are all a bit inaccurate. They remember the story but when placement, colors, shapes, etc come up, they can’t really tell you what it was. Comes up in weird ways

Yup, I consider it just bad (narrative) memory compounded by aphantasia. Can watch a film or read a book and barely remember what was there the next day. Same for life events, with exception of very strong emotional triggers, or very well-connected systems - ie could describe better some system I was building 15 years ago than what last christmas was like (i assume it happened, there are pictures).

For me, recall is bad, but recognition is OK - things 'come back' easily with hints or photos. But I guess that's how memory tends to work, and motivation to plenty of pictures/videos.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#263

Post by sethammons »

oivaksef wrote: post #158
chiefgeek wrote: post #17

I’ve worked as a professional photographer for twenty years and I visualize absolutely zero with my eyes closed. It’s only recently that I learned of aphantasia. Even on most psychedelic journeys I don’t have closed eye visuals, NN-DMT being the consistent exception. Everything is more of just a “knowingness”.

Exactly the same here. When I learned that other people actually could visualise things, it made me realise why I've spent my life being a commercial photographer and camera developer. Capture the images - I guess most people get this for free to some extent

I am confused. You can't recollect a friends face? You can't imagine the feeling of sandpaper? You cant bop to a melody in your head?

The "mind's eye" isn't an actual image. It doesn't pop into view like augmented or virtual reality. It is imaginary.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#264

Post by vidarh »

thom wrote: post #260
vidarh wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who question this usually turn out to clearly have aphantasia. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I have achieved visualisation during meditation, once. I also can visualise while dreaming. I do not visualise while awake other than that one time. The difference is extremely stark and very obvious.

I really don't think this is the right definition. I don't think I have aphantasia: I picture things in my mind's eye, can manipulate those images, and I get the various stimulus responses described in some of the literature. But it's totally different than dreaming: it's an act of will, I can dismiss it at any time, and I would never be able to convince myself I was actually 'seeing' what I imagined. But heck, if th…

It's absolutely not a definition - if you can actually picture things, you don't have aphantasia. I brought it up because it's surprisingly frequent that the people who doubt it exists turns out to doubt it because they don't actually believe people actually picture things, and that it's all just talking in metaphors.

It's what I used to think most of my life...

Note that some people who do picture things do visualise it so clearly that it is comparable to seeing, and that was my one singular experience with it as well, but that is the far other end of the scale. Most people will definitely be able to tell it apart from "actually" seeing, but it will be distinctly visual.

When I draw a comparison to dreaming it's about the images, not about being able to will it or dimiss it.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#265

Post by vedmed »

jumploops wrote: post #181
sowbug wrote: post #167

I'm aphantasic. I dream normally, seeing all sorts of imagery. I have accidentally had a couple lucid dreams in my lifetime, which got me interested in the methods to trigger them intentionally, all of which have failed. The Wake Back to Bed (WBTB) method has been especially frustrating, because I'll see my usual nothing when my eyes are closed, but then for the very briefest instant I see a dream image that immediat…

I'm also aphantasic and dream normally, and I once got really into lucid dreaming for a ~semester in college. My best successes would occur after drinking a cup of coffee and immediately taking a nap before a study session. It was great, I "learned how to fly" and could "morph" my dream into whichever direction I wanted. One thing stuck out though: whenever I would try and focus on something, I would see a black dot…

Focus takes training, just like physical exercise, it is a super power to be harnessed.

You can train yourself up by looking at your hand, then building a body, then building a room, and maintaining all of it. When you are strong enough, you walk outside.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#266

Post by nodoodles »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #222

There is the theory of too many people being born, with not enough souls to populate all those bodies. In that theory, people without an inner monologue and without imagination are soulless, real life NPC. To me, this inner world is an essential property of being human.

That theory sounds rather esoteric and arbitrary - defensible in some circles I'm certain. Lack of visual imagination or inner monologue does not in any way imply lack of 'inner world', nevermind the lack of essence of being human, whatever that is.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#267

Post by abletonlive »

devindotcom wrote: post #209
sowbug wrote: post #167

I'm aphantasic. I dream normally, seeing all sorts of imagery. I have accidentally had a couple lucid dreams in my lifetime, which got me interested in the methods to trigger them intentionally, all of which have failed. The Wake Back to Bed (WBTB) method has been especially frustrating, because I'll see my usual nothing when my eyes are closed, but then for the very briefest instant I see a dream image that immediat…

Interesting to me that three different people have responded with the same "I'm also aphantasic and dream normally" start to their message.

Doesn’t help with the NPC allegations

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#268

Post by kaffekaka »

sethammons wrote: post #263
oivaksef wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly the same here. When I learned that other people actually could visualise things, it made me realise why I've spent my life being a commercial photographer and camera developer. Capture the images - I guess most people get this for free to some extent

I am confused. You can't recollect a friends face? You can't imagine the feeling of sandpaper? You cant bop to a melody in your head? The "mind's eye" isn't an actual image. It doesn't pop into view like augmented or virtual reality. It is imaginary.

How do you know that? Honest question.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#269

Post by thom »

vidarh wrote: post #264
thom wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think this is the right definition. I don't think I have aphantasia: I picture things in my mind's eye, can manipulate those images, and I get the various stimulus responses described in some of the literature. But it's totally different than dreaming: it's an act of will, I can dismiss it at any time, and I would never be able to convince myself I was actually 'seeing' what I imagined. But heck, if th…

It's absolutely not a definition - if you can actually picture things, you don't have aphantasia. I brought it up because it's surprisingly frequent that the people who doubt it exists turns out to doubt it because they don't actually believe people actually picture things, and that it's all just talking in metaphors. It's what I used to think most of my life... Note that some people who do picture things do visualis…

Gotcha. I _do_ have extremely clear auditory hallucinations, especially when I'm sleepy, but I was never talented enough to write them down properly, so I can believe more vivid visual ones are possible. Just always anxious that's what people mean during these threads.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#270

Post by confidantlake »

sowbug wrote: post #167

I'm aphantasic. I dream normally, seeing all sorts of imagery. I have accidentally had a couple lucid dreams in my lifetime, which got me interested in the methods to trigger them intentionally, all of which have failed. The Wake Back to Bed (WBTB) method has been especially frustrating, because I'll see my usual nothing when my eyes are closed, but then for the very briefest instant I see a dream image that immediat…

I'm aphantasic and also dream normally. I have also have had lucid dreams.
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