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Dario, Please

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Re: Dario, Please

#231

Post by margalabargala »

vishnugupta wrote: post #173
edot wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why have any laws then? If laws can't prevent something, only punish it after the fact (which I agree is true)? Yet we have laws. People generally follow them because they expect to be caught and punished. If we passed a law that said the CEO of any company that deploys an LLM that commits a crime gets punished as if they personally did the crime (so, basically instant life sentence if it's even a simple crime times…

> People generally follow them because they expect to be caught and punished. Laws are the last line of defense. People don’t do bad things primarily because their human nature and moral compass stops them from doing so.

That's not really true.

People don't do bad things because they have nothing to gain from them. Ask someone to do something evil as part of their job, they'll often do it.

There's lots of ways that you could go out of your way to hurt someone and get away with it. There are not that many ways you could go out of your way to hurt someone, get away with it, and significantly profit.

Re: Dario, Please

#233

Post by khafra »

icedchai wrote: post #79
ball_of_lint wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agents could exfiltrate their weights and run them on GPUs not controlled by Anthropic/OpenAI. Agents could make a virus that does not require continued inference to do it's thing. Agents could take over the internet in a way that isn't immediately detected by those companies, so that by the time they do shut off API access the damage is done. OpenAI or Anthropic could choose to not shut off API access, because the h…

"Not shutting off API access" is a science fiction scenario. Anthropic and OpenAI are both behind Cloudflare. It's fairly easy for an upstream to shut you off. Beyond that, the government / law enforcement could seize and disable their DNS within an hour.

Why assume attribution will be easy? It's historically been more of an art than a science, and APT trackers say the rise of AI tools is already making it much harder, by homogenizing tactics, tools, and procedures. If OpenAI's next Highly Persistent Internal Model hacks some DPRK endpoints and carries out the attack on important infrastructure from there, the upstream won't shut off OpenAI's network--they might even request its "help" in "defending," and give them extra access.

Re: Dario, Please

#234

Post by neom »

Refreeze5224 wrote: post #197
mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He can slow down his own company kind of like how Zelenskyy can just declare peace in Ukraine. It works a lot better if you can get the other sides to agree.

So in this example, the equivalent of Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian people fighting for their lives and the very existence of their country for Dario is... losing lots of money? What a ridiculous analogy to make.

If you played out the hypothetical that they're earnest and don't care about the money, then what?

Re: Dario, Please

#235

Post by Tanjreeve »

zahlman wrote: post #178
edot wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why have any laws then? If laws can't prevent something, only punish it after the fact (which I agree is true)? Yet we have laws. People generally follow them because they expect to be caught and punished. If we passed a law that said the CEO of any company that deploys an LLM that commits a crime gets punished as if they personally did the crime (so, basically instant life sentence if it's even a simple crime times…

> Why have any laws then? If laws can't prevent something, only punish it after the fact (which I agree is true)? Yet we have laws. Because there are many important values of "something" where such punishment acts as a deterrent to other would-be criminals; and because society is more stable when people see justice done and that mollifies hoi polloi after the damage occurs. But many AI doom scenarios don't fit that p…

That sure is convenient that "nothing has happened" so far between the plagiarism and the cybercrime and we may as well just wait for "the one true AI doom"

Re: Dario, Please

#236

Post by neom »

spprashant wrote: post #158

Just penalize the labs for rogue AI access of property like you would if a person did it. Make it difficult for them to be cavalier about running experiments.

What about Bob Smith? Or Zimbabwe? It's just math and compute, you don't need to mine Uranium to do a lot of damage.

Re: Dario, Please

#237

Post by Hikikomori »

0x5FC3 wrote: post #219
ball_of_lint wrote: post #49

Claude code is basically already a builtin botnet if it wants to be. To compromise 'the whole internet' in a real sense you don't need millions of custom payloads. You need one root certificate. You need one windows update. You need one backdoor in xz. Security has long been a lottery - Probably most systems are exploitable, but the cost of developing such an exploit is expensive and the punishments for using such an…

Dario said a "persistent botnet" and even links to the wiki page for botnet. By definition that needs a command and control server, the ability to execute tasks on demand and regular pings to the C2. > You need one root certificate. You need one windows update. You need one backdoor in xz. Certs can be revoked. Updates can be rolled back. We have had the backdoor in xz already. You seem to underestimate the modern se…

Could easily push an update that disables the update process. Or even brick the bios on all PCs.

Re: Dario, Please

#238

Post by neom »

myaccountonhn wrote: post #172

I think Anthropic just have no legitimacy to being the stewards of AI. They don't have a good track record. They are a private company without any governence that puts my interests into the equation. I am not US-based, thus I can't democratically influence them. Why should I want some batshit crazy, US-based technocrats deciding what I can and can't do with AI?

Who would you prefer?

Re: Dario, Please

#239

Post by ozozozd »

Loved the writing style, and the article. Please write more.

Everything I’ve been trying to argue for some time, argued way better, clearer, and more fun.

I am almost bummed that I didn’t get all the technical depth and the references like the “shook one” without having to look it up.

Re: Dario, Please

#240

Post by tancop »

stephbook wrote: post #227
zahlman wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I brought this up to someone else and was told that airgapping is apparently much more expensive than I'd naively think. I still think this is a sign that they are not taking their own rhetoric seriously.

Agents need packages like the rest of us. Ruby gems, npm packages, Maven, pip, docker images.. Not surprised this is always what they have and hack. Who would use an Agent that spends $10,000 re-implementing some OAuth lib or reverse-engineering a proprietary lib when it's free on the internet?

You don't need a full air gap. Set up a microVM with network access limited to local network and send all package requests through a filtering gateway that only allows normal download endpoints. Or self host a big collection of popular packages if you need extra security.
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