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People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

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Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#191

Post by bnegreve »

nitwit005 wrote: post #171
King-Aaron wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are hopefully aware though that this is not the norm. Many (if not all) artists tend to visualise their work before and while they are doing it.

Watch people draw, and you'll realize that can't be true, or at least is a very incomplete description of what's going on. People have processes they go through to eventually get to something reasonably correct. Systems for drawing people, perspective rules, etc. These get extremely elaborate. They shouldn't need any of it if they could fully visualize the scene. They'd just need to copy that image to paper. You'll h…

> They are struggling with what they're drawing looking wrong to them, until they're fairly far along and the shapes are fairly complete.

In general I agree, but I have a counter example. I have a friend that has always been very good at drawing, and when he draws, it's immediately obvious that he has a very precise idea of what is going to happen. People often gather around him because it is entertaining to look at the drawing and suddenly understand what it represents. It's a similar experience to uncovering a photo frame covered with dust.

I assume that this ability is not uncommon among professional drawers.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#192

Post by D-Machine »

Swizec wrote: post #31

For anyone who doesn’t believe this is real, I recommend reading Thinking In Pictures. It’s a great book. Explains 3 types of thinking that people use in their day-to-day: Linear verbal, schematic conceptual, and photo realistic. It’s all a spectrum so you likely use all 3 to an extent. Most people think linearly and sort of describe things in their mind that they’re trying to imagine. It’s a picture but not really.…

Anyone who doesn't believe this is real needs to explain the well-documented cases of acquired aphantasia. Good luck with that.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#193

Post by grugagag »

karmakaze wrote: post #135
chiefgeek wrote: post #17

I’ve worked as a professional photographer for twenty years and I visualize absolutely zero with my eyes closed. It’s only recently that I learned of aphantasia. Even on most psychedelic journeys I don’t have closed eye visuals, NN-DMT being the consistent exception. Everything is more of just a “knowingness”.

I've also had this kind of topological knowingness which I couldn't name. Another comment here says "schematic conceptual" which captures what it feels like for me. Another good explanation here is that it's all taking place but that last step of creating the visual is suppressed (as intended) while conscious as that would be hallucinating.

I feel that I could visualize internally but there's a curtain pulled over the visualization part of it. It's there, i feel it but it's blocked from my sight somehow. I've built intuitive ways to probe the imagination so I technically experience my image-less visualization. However, when I attempt to visualize something more complex (there are a lot of elements or minutiae) I'm reaching my intuitive limits. When it comes to auditory imagination, I can literally listen to a song from my own head all day long with no effort.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#194

Post by grugagag »

nhinck3 wrote: post #60
pohl wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s it like to dream while you’re sleeping? Do you ever “see” anything then?

I sometimes experience dreams when I go back to sleep repeatedly, but in all normal circumstances it is nothing

Are you sure you're simply forgetting your dreams and you assume you don't dream?

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#195

Post by aezart »

flippingheck wrote: post #101

I'm pretty sure I have this, for all senses, and I only just learned there's things other than iñner eye (which I only learned of a few months). If people have an "inner taste" or "inner hearing", why bother eating a sweet or playing music? > Asked what sits beside the television, they answer without hesitation, but “we experience these as an awareness of a set of spatial facts.” This helps me understand what little…

How do you decide what you're in the mood to eat?

For me, I sort of imagine the sensation of eating something and observe how I react to it. If it's a strong positive reaction, that's what I'm in the mood for. Otherwise, if it's kind of a more bored reaction, I cast my mind out for another idea and try again.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#196

Post by al_borland »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #121
tekla wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure this is the default. Who literally hears music when thinking of it.

I do. I can "play it back" in my head, with full music/lyrics/chords/etc.

I have aphantasia, and I think my experience with music is similar.

I can think about a song, think about the melody, lyrics, etc… but I don’t hear it. If I hear a couple notes that remind me of a song, I can go through the rest of the intro, get to where the lyrics start, and get to the chorus and remember the name of the song (if it doesn’t come to me instantly), but it’s nothing like playback. It’s more like my inner monologue doing a bad a cappella cover version.

I sometimes wonder if everyone is talking about the same thing, but using different language to describe it. Some being more vivid and metaphorical in their speech than others.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#197

Post by culopatin »

vidarh wrote: post #130
Swizec wrote: post #31

For anyone who doesn’t believe this is real, I recommend reading Thinking In Pictures. It’s a great book. Explains 3 types of thinking that people use in their day-to-day: Linear verbal, schematic conceptual, and photo realistic. It’s all a spectrum so you likely use all 3 to an extent. Most people think linearly and sort of describe things in their mind that they’re trying to imagine. It’s a picture but not really.…

According to Ed Catmull surveying Pixar staff, there doesn't seem to be much more than a minor correlation between ability to visualise and artistic ability.

I can personally watch a movie in my head, eyes open and I’m super not artistic but very engineer oriented. To the point that I realized I should be dropping software for mech eng

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#198

Post by culopatin »

Aphantastic people of HN. Do you struggle remembering things in detail? My gfs family is all aohantastic and they just realized that it’s why they tell stories that are all a bit inaccurate. They remember the story but when placement, colors, shapes, etc come up, they can’t really tell you what it was. Comes up in weird ways

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#199

Post by al_borland »

chaps wrote: post #47
misthop wrote: post #3

Aphantasiac here, happy to discuss or answer any questions

When you close your eyes, can you make any visualization whatsoever? Not the press-fingers-into-eyes stuff nor from-memory visualization, but just anything. When I close mine, I can let my brain wander with little intention/feedback and my mind will create giant megastructures that I kinda sorta fly through. It's fully continuous almost like I'm zooming into a fractal.

99.99% of the time, it’s just black. Seeing things like you’re describing sounds like a super power.

The 0.01% of the time, I have seen blue lights. Without trying to look around too much, it’s something like this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-OzQ0zAtFL0

This has only happened a handful of times, maybe 5, definitely less than 10. I was in my mid-30s the first time it happened, at some house learning transcendental meditation. I opened my eyes for a second, thinking they were shining some lights to make it seem like something was happening. Sadly, I was never able to repeat this through meditation, but it has happened a few times as I try and fall asleep. I wish I could trigger it on demand. It’s super cool when it happens.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#200

Post by bvanheu »

vidarh wrote: post #144
pohl wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not sure the real difference isn't just where people draw the line in generalizing what it means to "see" and "hear" things. My dreams are more vivid than when I imagine an apple, but I still call it "seeing something in my head"—even when I know that it isn't exactly like "seeing"—and the sensation is different enough that I wouldn't blame someone if they chose to avoid calling it "seeing" something. How c…

When I "see something in my head" while dreaming, it is like seeing: There is a clear visual image. I don't see the black behind my eyelids. I can tell colours. I can tell shapes. When I "imagine" something while I awake, it is not remotely like seeing. There is no image overlaid on the "real world" whether obscuring the black behind my eyelids or anything else when they are open. I can't tell shapes, or colours. If…

I don't think "imagination" should be remotely like seeing. it's completely different than dreaming or seeing with your real eyes, I would qualify it as a "different sense" if you will.

for me, it's much less detailed unless I focus my imagination on the less detailed part.

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