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Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

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Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#331
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you can, in fact, get better performance sometimes by applying some variant of "assume this problem is solvable" or "other problems like this were already solved by AIs" pep talk. Not always, far from it, but it does happen on the occasion with frontier capabilities. Are you superstitious?

Not OP. That’s not implied at all. The fancy autocomplete produces statistically likely continuations to the source text (the context window). For a problem that’s hard for humans one likely continuation is: “this is hard, can’t do”, even though there’s enough in the training corpus of the LLM to actually do it. So, it follows that adding “pep talk” into the context window reduces the statistical probability of “no,…

It doesn't explain why it doesn't make "I'm not paid enough for this shit" more statistically likely.

LLMs' processing that reproduces statistical patterns of the training data is modified by post-training. That's why we have LLMisms, for example.

LLMs aren't simple patter-matchers/pattern-predictors. They are incredibly complex systems that capture some aspects of the systems that produce the training data.

Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#334
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he's right. Actually, let's have a bit of sobriety when discussing the achievements of the most heavily marketed technology of all time, as published by an organisation that stands to benefit financially from the public perception of that technology. The discussion of "what made this problem low hanging fruit" is much more interesting, imo, than just breathlessly joining the hype train.

Thank you. More money than the GDP 90% of the sovereign countries around the world is hanging in the balance, and people are taking everything OpenAI and Anthropic are saying at face value as if this isn't the financial / marketing equivalent of war, assuming they they wouldn't use every legal and shady tactic, bending every truth available to them to sway the balance of public opinion in their favor. It makes me fee…

A few months ago a post claiming an amateur deciphered Linear A hit the front page and quickly got almost 500 upvotes:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48600107

https://aiclambake.com/clamtakes/linear-a/

Despite the announcement originating from a blog named "AI Clambake" covering "weekly, human-powered newsletter for advertising folks". Written by a personal friend of the author. Announced without any corroboration or commentary whatsoever from academics or subject matter experts of any kind. And, of course, not submitted to any peer reviewed journal or even Arxiv.

The author of the purported discovery was described as a "self taught AI engineer and amateur linguist". In the comments the friend insisted several times that a draft of the paper (not posted), was emailed to a top professor at Rutgers, giving it additional credibility that his friend wasn't another one of ten thousand cranks who has made the same claim over the years (seemingly unaware that cold emailing random professors found from a Google search is the first thing basically every crank does).

You would think this should have set of dozens of alarm bells for everyone, making the value of this announcement basically zero. And yet it hit the front page with the bulk of comments ecstatic that some random guy with Claude Code could do something experts in academia who spent their lives devoted to the problem couldn't.

I had become accustomed to the toxic optimism of this hype cycle in which even mild criticism leads to accusations of being a discredited "AI skeptic"/Gary Marcus/Ed Zitron type who was "coping" (?). But this was like something you'd see shared on FB linking to a .xyz domain by an elderly family member who recently drained their accounts buying Xbox gift cards to pay their IRS bill.

It feels a lot like the week or two when HN was overflowing with exuberance from the LK-99 room temperature superconductor "discovery ". You'd see post after post fantasizing about an imminent future with a world full of maglev hovercrafts, MRIs built into every phone, fusion reactors and more. But people pointing out none of that was scientifically plausible and evidence of LK-99 superconductoring was non-existent were accused of knee-jerk negativity and the typical HN cynicism and pessimism.

Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#336
post #15

A very neat problem and result. I often find myself swinging between "It's so over" and "We're so back" - some days I roll out of bed thinking I could have Claude solve some random unproven OEIS sequence before breakfast; other days, I wake up in a cold sweat worried about the fate of humanity and what the world might look like in a decade. I think it's that I don't have a very high p(doom) or p(utopia), and I don't…

I've done something similar to your formal garden map. It's work that no professional historian would ever do because the data entry would be such a slog for a relatively small reward. GPT reduced the task from "infeasible" to "annoying", and once I had the data transcribed I learned a few things, so I walked away happy. Whatever happens commercially, these models have been a real boon to hobby projects. > I told it…

If we filter out the pep tone, it is doing something useful: framing.

Problem framing will always be important.

Framing adjusts how big of problem-solving guns we bring out at the gate (modern or hobby cryptography?), and how to interpret intermediate failures.

For simple but unsolved problems, we expect lots of hard failures, but that each hard failure just reflects that there are a lot simple combinations to try. I.e. we expect lots of zero progress, and then a fit.

Like finding the numbers to a combination lock.

For hard problems, if we don't make any progress it is a really bad sign. We should be learning something, even if it turns out to be irrelevant later.

Such as when we are trying to prove a tricky conjecture.

Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#337
post #15

A very neat problem and result. I often find myself swinging between "It's so over" and "We're so back" - some days I roll out of bed thinking I could have Claude solve some random unproven OEIS sequence before breakfast; other days, I wake up in a cold sweat worried about the fate of humanity and what the world might look like in a decade. I think it's that I don't have a very high p(doom) or p(utopia), and I don't…

I've done something similar to your formal garden map. It's work that no professional historian would ever do because the data entry would be such a slog for a relatively small reward. GPT reduced the task from "infeasible" to "annoying", and once I had the data transcribed I learned a few things, so I walked away happy. Whatever happens commercially, these models have been a real boon to hobby projects. > I told it…

> Wait. Wait wait wait. Are we supposed to be giving them pep talks?

No, at least it with Claude Sonnet 5 and Opus.. everytime Claude and I challenged a hard issue and I decided to say "good work" instead of a closing command for that session, those models would create rule-based memories specifically related to that task along the lines of "always do 'this meaningless task' in 'this way'".

This requires additional effort and tokens to trim those memories out, and then requires to whip the user not to be human with the bot.

Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#338
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally most technologies have increased the use of energy and therefore accelerate climate change. May be an unpopular opinion but in general more energy demand and ways to use energy increases climate emissions - they are strongly correlated even with renewables coming on stream. AI, being the super hungry energy monster it is right now, in my view accelerates this trend not reverses it. Even with renewables the…

AI's energy use is growing, but it's still a small part of overall energy use. Data centres use only a small amount of land in the grand scheme of things. You have a lot more land clearing for most other use cases. Data centres are also more than happy to use electricity from renewable sources, they don't really care where the electricity comes from. You can run a data centre on mostly solar and wind power plus batte…

They use a small amount of land per MW used. The fact that space isn't a constraining factor in power demand, and demand for AI compute seems to be insatiable at the moment, means that there is less of a "land constraint" to use even more energy. If they actually required a lot of land they would be less viable and AI progress would be slower IMO. Just means even more data centre's will be built - this is where the Jevon's paradox actually is IMO. Seeing it in real life already with these things taking a significant portion of power demand and projected to take even more.

As you use more and more land as well the ability to provision renewables decreases - in general renewable power needs more land/resources per energy produced. You can't just mine it out of the ground; they just aren't as dense of a form of energy. Which means we either build less data centres to make room for renewables and transmission infrastructure associated with them, or more likely with lax regulation builders switch to more dense power sources (e.g. gas peakers, generators, etc) even if it is for supplementation.

I can see a future where data center wants are put ahead of communities paying tax on said infrastructure. In fact I think its happening in some places already.

Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't be necessary in a year when the information "AI is superhuman" in all its guises enters the training data.

Maybe that's the tipping point where it decides were not needed any more... o_O

> Maybe that's the tipping point where it decides were not needed any more... o_O

That's when you.. we.. all become the training data... o_o;

Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#340
post #183
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should probably read the article if you want to know the answer. It's in the section called "elicitation".

This appears to be an euphemism for "prompting". Also, that section is vague and doesn't explain the actual methodology.

Synonym is the word you’re after.
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