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Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

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281–290 of 569 posts

Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#281

So, does anyone have any intuition for how concerned we should be that one of leading foundation models will be able to successfully attack the gold standard symmetric and public key encryption algorithms (AES, ChaCha, ECDH, Kyber, etc.) in the next few years? As a consumer of crypto that doesn’t understand the mathematics deeply, I’m getting kind of nervous that we’re going to wake up one day to find that the backbo…

It's unlikely that any of the modern cryptographic primitives will break over night.

First, modern encryption isn't susceptible to "this one weird trick!" like the early days. ChaCha isn't even a cipher. It's a key stretcher. Which means, even if you broke the math behind ChaCha, its inherent complexity means its still widely dispersing the original key across the cipherstream. There just won't ever be enough key material recovered per cipherstream block to be a concern for anybody.

Take a strong password, encrypt all of your emails over your whole life with it, and I'll bet hard cash no break of ChaCha will ever recover that password.

I have zero concern for modern encryption being broken in any meaningful way.

Public key crypto on the other hand, that's _ripe_ for breaking. Most all of it is built on assumed "hard" math. AI could easily break that, and I expect it to. And public key crypto is all used in very transparent algorithms that, once the math breaks, fully expose themselves. So record HTTPS traffic today, crack the public key crypto later, and you can decrypt them easily.

That said, I would expect a break on public key math to occur _steadily_. i.e. an AI might find a solution to the hard math, but the solution itself will be intractable in practice. Then maybe next year's AI reduces the complexity of the solution, so maybe a supercomputer could factor ten keys a year. The year after that you get a million keys cracked per year. And so forth. Nothing close to overnight.

Meanwhile, if we have AI that is capable enough to crack that math, we also have AI capable enough to both invent better math and rapidly deploy that latest HTTPS and such globally.

Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#282

Anytime I get worried about where AI might be headed, I think about how Climate Change is now on its way like an out of control freight train headed straight for us, and I worry about AI a little less. I doubt it's going to do anything to us that we're not already doing to ourselves

Generally most technologies have increased the use of energy and therefore accelerate climate change. May be an unpopular opinion but in general more energy demand and ways to use energy increases climate emissions - they are strongly correlated even with renewables coming on stream. AI, being the super hungry energy monster it is right now, in my view accelerates this trend not reverses it. Even with renewables the…

AI's energy use is growing, but it's still a small part of overall energy use.

Data centres use only a small amount of land in the grand scheme of things. You have a lot more land clearing for most other use cases.

Data centres are also more than happy to use electricity from renewable sources, they don't really care where the electricity comes from.

You can run a data centre on mostly solar and wind power plus batteries. If you need a gas-fired peaker plant three times a year to keep the data centres running, well that means your peaker plant still only produces emissions three times a year.

Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#283
post #21
post #2

> I told it to look online at some of Fable’s strongest feats, especially the math problems it has solved, and that something like this should be easy in comparison. Fascinating. I wonder if you could show "fake news" to a weaker model and get it to be more ambitious in its attempted solutions, even if it's not fundamentally any smarter.

Career path: software engineer -> prompt engineer -> positive affirmation engineer

Yes

Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the best conspiracies I've ever heard...

"Conspiracy" requires an unlawful or wrongful purpose. Please assume that the op was run from a jurisdiction where using a pseudonym on the internet was not illegal, and various sorts of influencer and meme marketing were well-accepted practices. Really, compared to an animated tiger telling kids that sugar-laden Frosted Flakes(tm) are "Great!", Task Peppermint was positively benevolent.

[dead]

Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#286
post #203

This appears to be proof that the guy who wrote the cipher, Sir Thomas Urquhart, did in fact laugh himself to death as legend has it. He wrote the cipher, and then, upon hearing Charles II was Restored to the throne he laughed until he died. The cipher reads, "O GOD UPHOLD KING CHARLES THE SECOND AND MAKE HIM THE SUPREME RULER OF THIS LAND" and so he was laughing because he just made an excellent joke that he can't t…

What's the joke, IDGI

The cipher wishes Charles II was the king again. The Stuart Restoration did happen in 1660 in fact, restoring Charles II to the throne. Legend has it he died of laughter, which checks out with the cipher because he was laughing how his wish got fulfilled yet he could tell no one about it yet :P

Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an alternative take. Climate change, and the myriad related environmental crises, are essentially a product of human population and technology. Population will follow its course, up and then down. The wildcard is technology. Yes, AI's energy hunger is worsening things right now and that's a problem. But, personally, I can't help be hopeful that AI's sheer potential might come to invert that curve. At the very…

> we could really use a revolutionary technology [to address climate change] We have it. We've had it for a long time. We've had several such technologies, take your pick: solar, nuclear, hydro, wind. The technology is not holding us back, politics, ignorance and greed are. I'm not at all hopeful AI will help us with any of those three very human flaws.

Hydro power is a bit limited: we mostly already use all the good hydro power sites, and there's not that much room for expansion.

I don't know why you are blaming greed so much? Profit seeking companies sell and operate wind turbines and solar cells just fine.

Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#288
post #185
post #120

In some ways this is similar to those game demos people get the LLMs to build. When you say "build me a cool cyberpunk FPS" you get the FPS it can build, not the FPS the author wanted, or the FPS that is desired by players. It looks impressive but that doesn't make it a good game, or the game anybody actually asked for. It's demo porn. In the same way if you tell an LLM to go and find an unsolved cipher it can solve,…

Sometimes it hits all three. >It looks impressive but that doesn't make it a good game, or the game anybody actually asked for. The game I wrote manually hits 0/3.

Did you get anything out of the attempt?

Re: Fable 5.1 Solves the Cyphral Distich, a 370-year-old cipher

#290
post #56
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you say that on climate change? I was still prophesied ice ages when in high school, then 12ft water increases and sunk Maldives in university and we still have roughly the same weather.

Weather is not climate. Not to mention we really don’t have roughly the same weather anyway.

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